585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed




Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.



Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..





Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..



Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.



Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..




Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..




Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed




Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..




Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,





A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...




Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..

585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....




Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,




Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed




We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............



Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added



In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .




Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck when loaded over 44,000 psi....



Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as the ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole stock. Ed

Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too

thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..



Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED

Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..





Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

Action worked fine.. Ed.

Here is video of early water barrel test of the

12ga From Hell, from years ago.




Here is picture from that video..





Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed

In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed

Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

.Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

Maybe the 1st to do 20mm.necked down to 50cal

We lost a great friend,,,Ed

It is possible rig up holders for many types setups.,

About shellholder supply for big cases,

RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases..

Here are various sizes........


16ga-- .810" rim,

20ga-- .760" rim,

24ga .725" rim,

28ga .680" rim....

.


We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed

surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,

long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



....

Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough

for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case....





HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

750 gr with 155gr RE17, just a moderate load.....Ed

Guys are still having trouble with various cases with too thick of sides. The thick sided case have enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,,And they'd work with proper slow powders, we are working on a 458 HSM experiment, with case holding 400 gr ball powder under the bullet. ED

20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having

the sides made too thick...They have thinner sides

than smaller cases guys are getting that have the sides

made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures.


Here Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/barnpchey.jpg

Got guys doing various 416 HEs..

One just built a 416 HE, just been testing it a few days..

And using 168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB, tested it, in good

conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and was within

a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges

had same accuracy. Ed..