585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --

[hubel458]

You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.



Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted easy.



Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.

There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.

Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi

Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case.

ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi

The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.



Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.



We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made
now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger.
Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed

 

[hubel458]

There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe a another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that guys are working with..



Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE.
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed



PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
to use them in. .

 

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
There soon will be 3 reamers there.

And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au.



WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
own headstamp.Ed

 

[Willie Sutton]

I need one of these, in a 1917 Enfield action built up in the African style.

Superb work. Well done!


Willie

.

 

[hubel458]

The enfield is one the easiest ones to do.
It has got the length. Ed

 

[WestKentucky]

My shoulder threatened to divorce the rest of my body when it caught wind of the breakdown single shot.

 

[hubel458]

They can be weighted down and use thick pads,

really the secret is, heavy barrels, and weight butt to balance
it, and thick pad.. Ed

 

[Plastikosmd]

^ my shoulder doesn't believe u.
I developed a flinch just reading this

 

[hubel458]

The y-tube video of the guy shooting the first 585HE
in Texas, it is a NEF with heavy barrel, and it just
raises him up, but didn't hurt him. Weighted and thick pad.Ed

 

[hubel458]

We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam under butt pad.



We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out.long. And we have those heavy
powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
pictured I use as one of my test guns.



And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
around like a weathervane.. Ed

 

[hubel458]

A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga
plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.

The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr.
Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have
to wait for them to be made.



Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed

 

[Elkins45]

they shoot nice with moderate 9,000 ft lb loads

I don't think I've ever seen moderate and 9000 ft lb in the same sentence before.

 

[Willie Sutton]

I need to come visit you when I'm in MI next time. This project is too interesting not to follow up on. You accepting guests for a look-see?


Willie

.

 

[hubel458]

With the pads/weight it shoots easy like magnum 12ga in a light gun.

Yes guests are welcome. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Oh, and the 24ga FH fits in with new southern MI rules where guys can
buy pistol case guns, along with shotguns for deer, but they can
go with 24ga 3" with brass case that is available, for with a 3"
24ga brass shotgun case in rifled barrel and have twice the power.Ed

 

[johnnydollar]

Pistol grip? Wow!

 

[Corn-Picker]

If my blue whale permit ever goes through I know what rifle I'll use...

I have no need/desire to own such a rifle, but I wanted to check in and say great job. I appreciate all the details and pictures you've posted, and I've learned a lot reading these threads. It makes me feel motivated to spend more leisure time with my firearms and to learn how to reload.

 

[hubel458]

Oh yes, reloading and experimenting/wildcatting is the
greatest hobby I think. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 longer one.
Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber barrels.
Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. A press in fit gives
good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.



Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.



For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough surface
paint. And They need weight added for big bore use..
An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being
too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

 

[Willie Sutton]

So it's time to reach out to the THR knowlage base.

I'm going to have Ed build me a barreled Enfield action, with classic express rifle features (banded front sight, express rear sights, banded front swivel, etc). I'm going to be shopping for someone to stock the result in a classic early 1900's express rifle contour wood stock. Any suggestions on a stockmaker to collaborate with us on this? Midwest location preferred but open to any.


Willie

.

 

[hubel458]

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is pic of a Enfield with a jeweled and polished bolt, going
to be 585HE. In the back, Bolt jeweling and polishing done by the
great craftsmen, Bob Snapp, years ago.



Picture comparing unfired and fired cases showing our tough cases
One on the left fired with 650gr at 2400 and base above belt
didn't hardly expand, Size the top and reload/shoot again.
And AHC will make guns now with our 585HE for any wanting
super top quality guns.They have some cases to give to guys
as a sample to show guys the case. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

If I had the least need for it I would sure enjoy taming the recoil:

Muzzle devices
Active compensation
Butt options
Venting/porting

Looks like a fun project.