Target Wadcutters for defense? Not sure...

Back in my commercial loading days (circa 1960s) several cops requested some of our target loads with the reversed wadcutter for their Chief's Specials and Undercovers. Don't think anybody shot anyone with one but I did shoot a few at a flat 2 X 4 leaning against a cottonwood tree and they went through the board and buried into the punky bark. Fair expansion but not as good as if fired into sand.

Or a jacket.
A guy here didn't want to get his gun all dirty with nasty old lead wadcutters, but he wanted a light target load. So he loaded up some 158 gr Speer JSP with a pinch of powder as listed for HBWC. (Sorry, I don't remember the load.)
That was fine for a while until he stuck a jacket. The core actually hit the target and the ear plugs kept out the odd report, so he pulled the trigger again. And again for the rest of the afternoon. He did not notice anything amiss until he cleaned the gun and felt the patch jump.
We went back to the range and dug in the berm. We found the core, and the jacket packed full of target paper and backer cardboard, with the base dished in by the nose of the following shot. We even found the bullet from the following shot with its exposed lead nose formed to a perfect fit to the base of the jacket.

S&W replaced the barrel for a modest fee.

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Speer use to warn about shooting their half jacketed bullets with a light charge for just that reason. They don't even offer those anymore and thats probably the reason. I have several boxes of them I will probably just save them and not shoot them.

One of my shooting buds had some loads for his gun that were so under powered that they would stick in a wood block I took for a target. They looked like little lead arrows stuck in the wood. I asked him what charge he using and why so light? He said he had read that the most accurate load was the lightest that would make it out of the barrel. I told him no one can write an article that will tell you the best load for your gun. Thats from trying different loads. IIRC he borrowed my bullet puller and pulled the rest of them and repowdered the cases and reloaded.

If you're going to reload you really need to read and research before you ever even prime a case. It makes no sense wrecking a gun just because you didn't read the reloading manual.

PapaG said:

Back in my commercial loading days (circa 1960s) several cops requested some of our target loads with the reversed wadcutter for their Chief's Specials and Undercovers. Don't think anybody shot anyone with one but I did shoot a few at a flat 2 X 4 leaning against a cottonwood tree and they went through the board and buried into the punky bark. Fair expansion but not as good as if fired into sand.

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For a long time, I carried reverse HBWC in a chief special. Back in the 70's I think it was Skeeter Skelton that wrote an article about doing so. Load them up with 3-3.5gr of Bullseye and it would expand like crazy. Load one up and shoot a watermelon. Its awesome load and would work well I think in a defense situation. Doesn't penetrate as deep as one would like and at about 15 yards, our load would begin to tumble. Federal's new HST round looks to be almost the same as the reverse HBWC and has some great reviews. I was able to get 200 of the bullets and loaded up about 50 and did some unscientific testing of my own. They work great. I was also curious if they would tumble like our old load, but they don't. Pretty darn accurate at 25 yards.

I've done a little testing with wc's, hbwc's and hb swc's over the decades in the 38spl's, 357's, 44spl's, 44mags & 45acp's. Used to swage them & cast them along with using a forster hp tool to hp them. At the end of the day the 38spl/357 hbwc's/wc's need hp/velocity to be affective. If you're lucky enough to have a clean shot into soft targets your good to go. Anything gets in the way like wood/boards/doors/drywall/windows/etc you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Typical 148gr hbwc's loaded with the hb in the case (traditional loaded/target load) shot out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver with a 1 in 11 twist using a 800fps+ load. Playing around shooting bowling pins @ 50ft.


Anymore I cast my own hbwc's, what's not shown is the 41cal hbwc's that I cast. Needed to cast more at the time the picture was taken.
Those are 32ca/, 35cal, 44cal & 45cal cast hbwc's.


I did do testing with these cast hb/hbwc's in a snubnosed 38spl. I tested them as cast, the hbwc turned backward, all 3 with a forster hp put in the nose of them. All loads were hot, in the +/- 950fps range.
left: 158gr lyman 358431 the hb version of the keith 172gr swc
center: rafine 150gr fn hb bullet designed for the older 38s&w revolvers that used the .360" bullets
right: Mihec 148gr hbwc


The fbi used a 158gr hb swc hp in their "fbi 38spl sd loads".


At the end of the day after a bunch of testing with hbwc's, wc's, swc's, fn's, hb bullets, hb bullets with hp's put into them. These bullets outperformed everything else in the snubnosed 38spl. Anymore I keep the 158gr hp's around in 38spl cases with loads that do 950fps+ in that 2" bbl'd 38spl & a 1200fps+ load in a short bbl'd s&w l-comp with the 170gr bullets.


Ed harris did an article on the 38spl/wc load and it's been urban myth/folk lore ever since. The hbwc's turned backwards are even less lethal. There got to be at least 1 thread current (well maybe up to 2 weeks old) at all times on the 3 websites is frequent on hbwc's turned backward or wc's for sd loads.

All's I can say is get out and do a little real world testing. Sites like lucky gunner (another thing that seems to be quoted daily) are ok for giving someone an idea of the velocities to expect out of a load/ammo. Myself, the only reason a snubnosed 38spl is laying around is that's what the misses wants. The last thing I'd ever reach for is a hbwc/wc load to put in it.

forrest r those are nice looking bullets you are casting. What molds are you using?

Ratshooter said:

forrest r those are nice looking bullets you are casting. What molds are you using?

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Thank you for that.

Those are a bullet cast from a Mihec mold, 1 of his 640 series. Make no mistake about it those bullets will flat out shoot!!! Everyone talks about the accuracy of a hbwc. That mihec 640 bullet with the high/low/double crimp groove will give a hbwc a run for it's money.

A couple years back I took 1 of those nib s&w's with the hillery holes and mim parts out to do a little testing looking for a load to shoot shotgun shells. We get together and shoot shotgun shells instead of bowling pins. Same rules as bowling pins, we just setup 12ga (red/old eyes need red) shotgun shells instead of bowling pins @ 50ft instead of 25ft. These targets are not hand/cherry picked by any means. They are nothing more than the test targets used that day to test loads that would hold minute of shotgun shell @ 50ft. They are 6-shot groups.


Both of those loads are 900fps+ shot on the 1st outing with a nib 686. 1 of these days I'm going to have to go out and actually do some testing for a accurate bullseye load. Right now that mihec bullet is my blammo ammo/range fodder bullet for general range play.

Thats fantastic shooting. Do you have a link for the maker of the mold? I gotta get at least one. Can you give any details on the coating you are using and how you are doing it? Sorry to be so nosey but you have my undivided attention.

I like the solid base wadcutters.

215 grain .44 special



and the 250 grain .44 special

^ Great photos!

GRIZ22 said:

I still carry a factory wad cutter in a J frame.

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Me too.

The British tried that with the Webley in .455 well over 100 years ago. The Mark III ammo was basically a HBWC turned backwards... mark IV was much like a WC round with pretty soft lead. Both were in danger of violating the Hague convention, so they eventually went back to a conical profile

800fps equals 545mph. i rely on 38 wadcutters.

i’m a 60+ civilian who avoids apex predator situations and is home after dark. i was never “into” recoil, shooting guns for me was always about relaxation, not thrills, or was about lawful self defense, which requires much practice that is pleasant and affordable. i practice-shoot what i carry. handguns are binary tools: hits count, misses do not, no middle result. there is no handgun ammo yet that stops an attacker with near miss concussive shock waves or proximity fuse shrapnel. my preferred ccw handguns come with 38 wadcutter (or 22lr) ammo, either clocked at 800fps. i can reliably hit center mass with this ammo, one handed or two, weak or strong hand. if you perforate threatening living tissue with a screwdriver going 545mph multiple times you are bound to rearrange its physiology and attitude enough to get off the x.

Well trust me. Human hide not near that tough. You hit an intruder with a wadcutter they will know it. Some of my defense rounds are not quite 38+p but the bullet won't penetrate a 50 gal barrel 10 ft away. But they will spread out like a silver dollar. Anyone getting hit by it be severely messed up.

Buffalo Bore makes a warm full wadcutter .38 special that is still safe to shoot in older guns.

It is about the best stopper in the caliber. Better than even a hollow tip FBI load,

Your Bullseye/PPC loads are pretty light. Get some good factory wadcutters like Federal or Black Hills. Wadcutters typically penetrate well in soft targets.

www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Slow%20Motion%20Videos.html

rodinal220 said:

Your Bullseye/PPC loads are pretty light. Get some good factory wadcutters like Federal or Black Hills. Wadcutters typically penetrate well in soft targets.

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I looked up the Federal Gold Medal WC loads you recommended and they are rated at 690fps and I am guessing thats from a 4" test barrel. You would be lucky to get 600fps from a 2" snubby. Thats the same speed I get from my 22 caliber pump air rifle. The OP asked about "target wadcutters" for defense. Wad Cutters yes, target wad cutters no. Get some real WC loads if you want to use them for SD. Something that reaches at least 750fps from a 2" barrel.

Something like this. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111 But at a $1.60 a round you really can't afford to practice with it. Reload your own or find a reloader to load you 250 or so.

Factory wadcutter ammo penetrates just fine on the street , don't place too much into paper ballistics.

rodinal220 said:

Factory wadcutter ammo penetrates just fine on the street , don't place too much into paper ballistics.

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If I'm going to point a gun at someone with the intention of possibly shooting them you can bet its not going to be loaded with pop gun rounds. Remember the 38 Special was created because of complaints about the the 38 Colt and failures to stop. And the 38 Colt is more powerful than the 38 target wadcutters. Use whatever you want and believe in. Its no matter to me. I'm kind of a big strong guy and can handle full power rounds. Even from a lightweight snub.

Ratshooter said:

If I'm going to point a gun at someone with the intention of possibly shooting them you can bet its not going to be loaded with pop gun rounds. Remember the 38 Special was created because of complaints about the the 38 Colt and failures to stop. And the 38 Colt is more powerful than the 38 target wadcutters. Use whatever you want and believe in. Its no matter to me. I'm kind of a big strong guy and can handle full power rounds. Even from a lightweight snub.

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15.8-15.9 inches of penetration is not a pop gun. It is right where the FBI says it ought to be.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

This guy got 18+ inches penetration
https://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

14.8-16.0+ inches of penetration
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38 Special/38 Special Ammo Selection.html

15.5-20+ inches
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31785-38-Special-Lead-Bullet-Gel-Test

And so on and so forth, until the cows come home.

Bottom line:
Target wadcutters demonstrate in test after test that they penetrate more than the FBI minimum standard of 12". In gel, not conveyor belt material.

For my own part, I use Underwood .38spl+P 158gr LSWCHP-GC moving about 1000fps in my snubbies. But if that load gets too sporty for me, moving down to the target wadcutter is fine. It sure is easy to shoot and put where I want it to go.

Nobody is going to make you use wadcutters, but deriding them because they do not penetrate terrifically resilient industrial materials is odd.

roo_ster said:

Nobody is going to make you use wadcutters, but deriding them because they do not penetrate terrifically resilient industrial materials is odd.

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I don't care what they do to conveyer belt material. I really don't. But the OP asked about using TARGET Wadcutter Bullets for SD. I cannot recommend them them to anyone. That was my answer to the OP. If you are going to carry a gun use a potent round. And I am sure the original Colt 38s would also give deep penetration in FBI jello. But they didn't work very well in actual use did they? If the OP wants use WC bullets at least use some with some punch. Is that hard to understand?

And I stated in post # 44 to use what you want. It makes no difference to me.

a 148gr. target wadcutter from a .38 spl J frame is a good choice for recoil sensitive people.

JERRY said:

a 148gr. target wadcutter from a .38 spl J frame is a good choice for recoil sensitive people.

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That I agree with. If its all you can handle then use it. But if you have the ability to use a more powerful round I would suggest you do so. If the target 38 WC is so effective I wonder why when the FBI that everyone likes to point to didn't just arm their agents with 9mm equivalents going 650fps and call it good? Even the 40s&w could have been downloaded to be very gentle shooting and give 15 or more inches of penetration. But governments and police agencies are nearly always on the hunt for a more powerful round. Not a less powerful one.

Ratshooter said:

That I agree with. If its all you can handle then use it. But if you have the ability to use a more powerful round I would suggest you do so. If the target 38 WC is so effective I wonder why when the FBI that everyone likes to point to didn't just arm their agents with 9mm equivalents going 650fps and call it good? Even the 40s&w could have been downloaded to be very gentle shooting and give 15 or more inches of penetration. But governments and police agencies are nearly always on the hunt for a more powerful round. Not a less powerful one.

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if you agree with me why bring up the trite question?