how your physical condition affects the legality of using deadly force to defend yourself

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Do you have a cite that bare fists are the number one murder weapon in the world?
This is for US homicide
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....ges/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

I imagine that the numbers of "personal weapon" homicides would skew higher than firearms homicides when considering "in the world" because firearms are much less common around the world so stats on knives, clubs, hands, feet, etc would increase dramatically compared to firearms.
 
No, I don't.

That is a conclusion I reached on my own. I took pieces of information that I have both read and heard from multiple sources across multiple disciplines both inside and outside of the pro 2A/ RKBA community, collated it in my brain, extrapolated from that, made some suppositions and reached a conclusion.

So, no, there isn't "a cite" for that and I very seriously doubt there even is one. Since I didn't know I was going to have to defend my dissertation against the THR doctoral committee, I failed to document my research trail. Since none of my information came from classified sources, anyone with a real burning desire could probably find out for himself.

I looked it up. The numbers I found were in such disagreement to your statement that I figured you must have some other source. As mentioned, there are sharp objects and hard object in most places in the world; indigenous cultures around the world and throughout history have created weapons to hunt or fight with.

In 2017, the UN reported that firearms were responsible for 54% of all homicides worldwide, while sharp object accounted for 22%. The remaining 24% is spread out over the broad heading of “Other”, which includes poisoning, blunt objects, empty hands, and others.

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Booklet1.pdf
 
I appreciate that. Facts. It appears my supposition was wrong & I am man enough to admit that. And thank you for providing evidence.

What I don't appreciate is all the yahoos who come out of the woodwork and aren't man enough to come right out and say they have a differing opinion and present their evidence. Instead, they want to cast aspersions.

Or who apparently can't read very well and start linking FBI UCR data. Well, the FBI only tracks statistics for the US, not the whole world. Some of these third world cesspools don't do such a great job of tracking crime stats in the first place & certainly don't keep real good tabs on the number of women & children who get beaten to death.

I am, however, curious as to the context of that UN report. The UN has an agenda of civilian disarmament & it would not be above them to cook the books.
 
Though interesting, the discussion of how many people are killed in what manner has taken us pretty far off topic.

Yes, people have been killed by others using bare hands and feet, some intentionally, and some unintentionally.

And yes, one punch can kill.

But neither of those facts would go very far in a defense of justification against charges for the use deadly force to defend against an unarmed assailant.

There has to be more to the equation.

One of the requirements for a legal defense of self defense is that the force used be proportional to the force threatened by the attacker. To wit, deadly force may only be used to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm--that is, an imminent threat of an attack by deadly force.

In most circumstances, an attack using hands and feet would not meet that standard, as it would not be reasonably expected to present a likely risk of death or serious injury. It might so result, but that is not likely.

The use of deadly force might be justified, if....
  • The attacker is markedly larger, stronger, younger, or more fit than the defender,
  • The defender knows beforehand that the attacker possesses substantially superior fighting skills,
  • The defender is outnumbered,
  • The defender would be put at extreme risk due to the use of anticoagulants, etc.,
  • The use of deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the attacker from gaining possession of the defender's deadly weapon.
Of course, all of the other requirements for a legal defense of self defense must also be met.

A defense based on a disparity of force argument can be an uphill battle. Some years ago, a man in Arizona was attacked and overpowered by three unarmed persons. He fired his pistol when it became clear that he was about to lose possession of it. No one was killed.

The defender was charged, tried twice, and spent a lot of time in jail. He was finally released, after the state declined to prosecute him for a third time after he was successful in two costly appeals.
 
Disability isn't a blank check to do whatever it takes to defend yourself. Recently, an elderly man was beaten on Chicago public transportation first by a pickpocket he caught in the act and then by a mob. Andrew Branca discusses the incident in detail on his website (www.lawofselfdefense.com). You must be a member to get access but the bronze level is free. Although the pickpocket is bigger than the old man, several decades younger, and has him down on the floor in a position of complete disadvantage, Branca maintains that the old man still wasn't permitted to respond with deadly force. He has stated on many occasions that you can't use deadly force to defend against a less than deadly attack. The implication is that, if you can't save yourself without resorting to deadly force, you are obligated to take the beating. Therefore, it's important to have a less than deadly alternative such as martial arts or pepper spray.

Have no intention of signing up for a "Free" stuff because if it is free then you are the product generally, no offense to Mr. Branca who obviously has to pay the bills. I prefer to buy his books etc. rather than pay continuing fees but that is just me.

Here is the story of the event apparently, https://www.breitbart.com/crime/202...allegedly-beat-man-while-riding-subway-train/ The pickpocket was a female teen who then got help and returned with her posse to carry out the assault. Here is a bit more https://www.foxnews.com/us/exclusive-chicago-subway-video-man-attacked-11-teens. You can watch the video and get a bit more out of it.

When dealing with issues of self defense, it a summation of the events and factors involved and what a reasonable, prudent person would do. There must be an objective fear of "death" or "serious bodily injury" which a jury will agree exists. Injuries to the head, spine, chest, etc. are generally believed to constituted serious bodily injury even by means of merely physical force without weapons. However, one must also take into account the ability of the perpetrator to deliver serious injury--size, height, weight, exhibited training at the time or known to the victim, can all make a difference. Then you have the victim, did the victim provoke the assault or engage in mutual combat, did the victim try to avoid a conflict--retreat, indications of no intention to fight, etc.. Then victim characteristics where age, sex, size and weight, prior injuries, and disability come into play. Then the actual fight characteristics, disparity of force, being unable to flee, amount and application of force to specific sensitive areas, location of the assault, were the attackers retreating, and so on.

All of that has to be considered in such cases. Simple declarations of the law means this or that simply does not fit complex scenarios of self defense that often occur.

In the apparent case that Branca was referring to, given the number of assaults in Chiraq, I do not know for sure.

The encounter begins with someone stealing something where lethal force cannot be deployed to stop simply a property theft. The response must be proportional to the offense--lethal force cannot be used generally to stop property theft and the teen leaves to get more muscle to continue the assault after her initial assault ends. "The footage shows one of the female teens first trying to pickpocket the victim while he’s asleep. The man awakens, tries to fend off the teens, but the woman drags and beats the man."
However, at the point of her leaving, then the engagement stops so no force can be used. Holding someone down on the ground, alone does not constitute enough of a risk of serious bodily injury to use lethal force at that point. However, if you combine that with pummeling the head or chest area, lethal force might be justified, ceterus paribus. This is the sort of close call that Branca is referring to where a man is assaulted by a teen female where a jury might feel that lethal force was not proportional to the threat even if the guy was on the ground. A jury might believe that only the amount of force reasonable to being able to get up would be justified if the person is simply keeping you from getting up with minimal force. Lethal force being used to fend off a physical assault by a female teen defendant that does not appear to be physically able to inflict serious damage to a man is a jury question that might be answered different ways depending on the location.

The second part of the encounter is when the person is pushed to the floor and then kicking begins with a disparity of force. At this point, the law shifts, kicking someone while they are down is a forcible felony in all states and risks serious bodily injury under Illinois law which does generally justify using lethal force. That would include females who typically are much stronger below the waist than above so a kick from a female could quite well be lethal. Furthermore, gravity if you are on the ground, would cause pepper spray to come right back down on you--ooops, you just incapacitated yourself. A taser would not work on multiple targets and a stun gun could only incapacitate one person. The law cannot compel impossibilities and so under the circumstances of a massive disparity of force indicated in the following, "She then appears to run to another car, and returns with a group of teens including five men and two women. They surround the man seated on the train. One man pummels the victim, even lifting himself up on the train’s bars to repeatedly kick him in the upper body and face." would, imho, constitute a threat to serious bodily injury and even death.
 
I prefer to buy his books etc. rather than pay continuing fees but that is just me.
The books are great, but the blog posts provide insight into new cases and appellate decisions that I believe to be worth the higher-level subscription expense.

Simple declarations of the law means this or that simply does not fit complex scenarios of self defense that often occur.
True.

One can try to outline the general constructs, bu one cannot reasonably flow-chart the possible details

A jury might believe....
It all boils down to that, or rather to what jury does believe, should it come to that, in every case.

Excellent post!
 
Don't rely on it carte blanche.

A disparity of force might justify the use of deadly fore, but it has traditionally been an up-hill battle.

By the way, trial bu a "jury of one's peers" was a right granted in the Magna Carta. It meant that lords would be tried a jury of lords.

We don't have that here.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Actually and number of references found by Googling “Jury of Peers” would indicate that yes we do.
 
"Actually and number of references found by Googling “Jury of Peers” would indicate that yes we do." There are such blurbs.

But what we have is a right to a prompt trial by a fair and impartial jury.

One will not find "jury of peers" in the law of the land here.
 
In Tennessee carry permit class based on actual court rulings and opinion of the state AG, "less than deadly attack" meant something like a bloody nose, black eye, boot bruised butt from which you could expect to walk away maybe with bruised body or ego but with no imminent threat of death or permanent disability. Disparity of strength or size (an Arnold Schwartzeneger beating a Wally Cox) or disparity of numbers (a gang jumping a lone person) would constitute a deadly attack justifying threat or use of lethal force in self-defense.

There are nuances in law and precedence in Tennessee: the initial attacker has the duty to retreat; if the attacker decides to leave, the victim no longer faces imminent death or greivous bodily harm and has successfully defended themself within the law. If the initial victim continues to use lethal force in retribution or pursues the attacker for revenge, the legal roles are reversed and the retreating attacker has the right to use lethal force in self-defense if they fear for life or limb.
Seriously? So Wally can go up to Arnold, and as Arnold smiles at him, he can reach out and break Arnolds nose and calmly walk away. And when Arnold jumps up and says "Hey you SOB!" old Wally can simply shoot him, due to size and strength disparity? Yeah that law was well thought out. Tongue-in-cheek, of course, but don't think there aren't punks out there considering it, about big guys they don't like.:D
 
"Actually and number of references found by Googling “Jury of Peers” would indicate that yes we do." There are such blurbs.

But what we have is a right to a prompt trial by a fair and impartial jury.

One will not find "jury of peers" in the law of the land here.

The substitute for peers is vicinage which means you are tried in the vicinity of the crimes committed and with the jurors composed from and reflecting the demographics of the citizenry of that district. It is in the 6th amendment and is considered the vicinage clause which reads, . . . the accused shall be entitled to a jury "of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law".

Scotus has ruled via Batson v. Kentucky and other places that a jury pool must fundamentally correspond with citizens of that particular district and exclusions even by peremptory challenges shall not be for prejudicial reasons such as race, sex, national origin, religion, etc.

The legal concept of jury of one's peers comes from Chapter 39 of the Magna Carta, ""No free man is to be arrested or imprisoned, or disseised, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any other way ruined, nor will we go against him or send against him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.". Now, it is true that literally, English society has a different formal social rank distinction of royalty, aristocracy, and commoners, so that peers in a jury would be the according social group to the defendant. But, a right of the peerage to a separate trial in the House of Lords (literally their peers) has been abolished since the 1930's. Haven't a clue whether or not a jury in a regular crown court would require a jury of peers but I suspect not as many of the privileges of the peers have been trimmed back.

In the U.S., having no aristocracy by constitutional prohibition, everyone (outside of aliens--those without citizenship) has the right to have their case considered by other citizens in good standing aka their peers. Thus, felons who have not been rehabilitated, non-citizens, those who cannot serve due to physical or mental incapacity, and children (and formerly women), are not considered peers (of the same social standing) in the same polis (political community) and cannot serve.

You see something similar in military courtmartials where the officers and enlisted may serve as jurors in enlisted cases but only officers may serve in courtmartials of other officers.

It is still a term of art in the courts just as law of the land is and you see the older language sometimes used in states that were the original colonies. It is still used in court opinions as a term of art just as law of the land is sometimes substituted in place of due process of law.
 
The books are great, but the blog posts provide insight into new cases and appellate decisions that I believe to be worth the higher-level subscription expense.

True.

One can try to outline the general constructs, bu one cannot reasonably flow-chart the possible details

It all boils down to that, or rather to what jury does believe, should it come to that, in every case.

Excellent post!
Kleanbore,

You might like Mitch Vilos's book even though it is a bit behind Branca's apparently new revisions that might be coming soon. Mitch actually practices self defense law in one of the Western states and has defended cases involving self defense.

https://mitchvilos.com/products/self-defense-laws-of-all-50-states-2nd-edition also at Amazon and other places. I prefer Mitch's organization of the material rather than Andrew's which resemble those of a continuing legal education course. Andrew though has kept his current through revisions.

On appellate cases, I had access to Lexis via work but we have switched to Westlaw--grumble, grumble. KeyCite (Westlaw) is worse than Shepard's Guide (Lexis) for quickly determining precedent value. Also have the ALCDN videos and materials as well.
 
Have never been a fighter.
Try to avoid any hassle.
But injuries and arthritis have me unable to leave situations in speedy fashion LOL
With influx of criminals to my area........its not very comforting.

Always been risk.
Its just way higher now.

Local law enforcement says to always be armed.
Burg could go all Ferguson any time.
I have never been fast enough to run away but when I was younger I found out that there was an advantage to being a 5'7" version of cousins that played football--for some reason a very powerful 200 pound man can be somewhat intimidating
 
I will not take a beating.
Period.

Am watchful and avoid trouble.

Todays thugs are worse than ever.
Kid at local.HS was jumped, beaten, arm shattered. Several surgeries on it. Other trauma.....he might never be right.

Those kids juvi so out to do it again.

Actually, I think one of them did get shot and killed later.
 
I am 66 and on social security. I always carry both Sabre mace and a 1911. If I were attacked, I'd mace and run if possible. If still run down, cornered, or attacked with any weapon, I'd immediately put a 45 hollowpoint into the face of the attacker. I too will not take a beating. Period. Lots of us will not.
 
Exhausting all options to then pull your weapon.....imho probably means you are exhausted.
 
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Had some " homeless " appear out of nowhere on a sunny summer afternoon. The little woman and I headed to restaurant downtown. Parked across street at an empty lot. Nobody was around (parked there for that reason ), and there he was and moving toward. I told him sternly to leave us alone and he kept coming. Placed my hand on my side and said leave. He wasnt stoned or drunk like he pretended. Stopped his advance and went the other way.

Was not gonna get back in my car or run, i had somebody else to look after.

This wasnt a bad town, or bad area, wasnt at night. Nope. This was broad daylight and in a supposed good area.

Discussed w local law enforcement. Guess there were a few strong arm robberies in that area. Drugs has a lot of junk happening.
 
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Today imho violence is of higher level and frequency.

Home invasions? Curb stomping people to death?

World has lost its mind.

Having friends and fam in legal and law enforcement, I get to hear what really goes on.

Again, do whatever makes you feel comfortable.

I will not underestimate my opponent.
 
Hookeye, should you ever employ deadly force against anyone, and be unable to sufficiently counter evidence to the effect that the attack on you had constituted a threat of less than deadly force, your "tough talk" in this public forum could be the factor that puts you away for a long time.
 
I like the big city. Music and food
Go to Chicago and Indy and have a great time.

Nothing to fear. Be smart, be watchful.
And have fun.

You just dont go to some areas and you dont act stupid. Never been on the " El" .....and never will LOL
 
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My state allows deadly force for protection against serious harm.
Doesnt have to be fear of death.
 
You yanked my post about not wanting to be another Reginald Denny.

I get the trying to portray some image here

Sure some people use deadly force when they shouldnt. Many add to a situation where it escalates to terrible.

Im not one of those.

I know the laws where i live and I also know how bad things are.

Its not tough talk and I resent your implications.

I have zero desire to take a human life. Hell shooting deer for the freezer is hard enough.

Think it absolutely ridiculous to be pushed back to maximum disadvantage
 
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Do agree that a response should be in defense. Never revenge. And if no threat, no response.

But to wait until cornered and damaged before response is silly IMHO.
 
I guess joining a range and shooting at any target that looks like a human silhouette could be used against a person.

This thread is about physical limitations.

Doubt many of us here are MMA fighters.
Most probably folks that have worked for a number of years and have physical conditions from it.

Reading social media locally, a lot of people still think it acceptable to solve differences with violence. They are complaining about all the youth gun violence, tell them to be " men" and do things the old fashioned way.

I never understood fighting even back when I was a kid.

Its stupid
 
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