Canada to ban

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Why don't they just ban crazy people? Or murderers?
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Say hello to increased Red Flag laws then? Just another cliche. Not to support gun bans but the rationale is that firearms make it easy to commit multiple killings. Thus we give a murderer or crazy person a powerful instrumentality. Yes, they could use cars or make bombs but guns make it easier to do.

Technically, violence prediction is very, very iffy if you read the professional literature. The only things that might predict just a little for a rampage are:

1. Past history of violence
2. Making overt threats
3. Having a stockpile of weapons, recently acquired and without a seemingly sensible usage for hunting, collecting or competition. Beyond what one would think would be necessary for personal or home defense.

So tell me how to ban crazy people? There's not a blood test for such. Crazy is bad term, you need specific diagnostic criteria. Want to use a statistical definition - well, you have lots of guns. Thus you are way outside the mean. You're crazy - let's go get them.

Now, let's ban smart phones or cars or draino. They kill people - again a useless cliche for most arguments. The gun is a personalized threat against you. It's core purpose is violence (sporting uses are a side effect and practice for the weapons usage). The threat of aggression against you is seen as more potent that the side effect of another item whose core usage is not violence. Why did we go to war after 9/11? Cell phones kill more. It is because someone attacking you is different from a misuse of a normal, everyday item.

Again, you need to rationalize why the public needs to have instruments of lethal force or you have lost the argument.

Ban crazy people, phones, God gave us the right, etc. - not going to work in convincing someone that we have or need instruments of lethal force. The Canadians, the UK, Australia - didn't buy the sports reason. Some countries may buy into the RKBA, those that do in Europe have problems with the EU. Switzerland (gun heaven?) is starting to follow EU guidelines. Czechs are fighting them - or some of the populace are.

I guess I am ranting because when I see just a string of cliches, I see a loss.

The Canadians obviously for the most part do not accept that this misuse is countered by the greater good of having arms for self-defense or the defense against tyranny.

I note that in the USA - the latter is not a major part of our gun debates anymore. It is mocked by both pro and anti gun speakers for the most part.

Many democracies do not think that the populace will ever need to defend against tyranny.
 
GEM said:
Not to support gun bans but the rationale is that firearms make it easy to commit multiple killings. Thus we give a murderer or crazy person a powerful instrumentality. Yes, they could use cars or make bombs but guns make it easier to do.
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And that's the key, the power and ability to project lethal force upon others at a distance and with the pull of a trigger. Governments tend to seek a monopoly on lethal force. Not that this actually does good, because governments and agents thereof are historically responsible for more murders than all the private criminals in the world combined. Consolidate power to any institution, be it a government or corporation, and abuse of that power ensues. That's just human nature. The 2A is an attempt to keep that consolidation of power from occurring.
 
Hmm, I feel like they keep trying stuff like this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daniel...gistering-long-guns-and-gave-up/#2274263e5a1b

Lost in the discussion: Canada tried it and gave up, discovering like several other nations that attempting to identify every gun in the country is an expensive and ultimately unproductive exercise. Criminals, of course, don’t register their guns. And even law-abiding citizens tend to ignore registration when it comes to long guns mostly used for hunting and target shooting.
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I imagine that it’ll largely be ignored.

If anything I imagine that even more illegal guns will be around. They’ll pour over the border, both from the US border and imported from Asia and the Middle East as well as being made homemade in garages and workshops.

“Oh well, it’s illegal. Might as well have whatever”. Hence the number of full auto weapons used in Canadian crime.
That’s the attitude I’ve seen wherever they’re illegal.

I mean even in New Zealand we didn’t see a whole lot of compliance.
 
theotherwaldo said:
We're lucky, here in the USA.
We had a foreign government decide to disarm us at an early point in our history.
This affected our national psyche to the point that we wrote the right to keep and bear arms right into our founding document.
Canada had no such treatment and has suffered because of it... .
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Thing is....Canadians themselves do not think they have suffered. But you are correct, history has a lot to do with why we have such different opinions on RKBA. I read this article a coupla decades ago and had a hard time finding it again, but it does a really good job of attempting to show why our neighbors to the North, while being very similar, have dissimilar ideals about firearms. It's long, but it is a good and interesting read.
https://guncite.com/journals/dkcgc.html
 
What punishment is there for illegal export? I know that there are still some unmonitored border crossings, so assuming as an American, I meet up with a Canadian at the border and hand him an AR15 and he hands me a wad of cash, what repercussions are there? Not that I want to do so, but there clearly will be a market along the northern border of the US, much like has recently been discussed of “off the roster” used guns in California. Canadian law and US law, what punishment is faced?
 
GEM said:
https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...645_3_mobile_web_only_headlines_headlines_hed

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...n-to-target-ar-15-and-the-weapon-used-during/



Note that past protected Mini-14 has caught the attention of banners. It was similarly banned in Norway after their rampage. Clearly the next round goes for all semi guns. The cute build arounds available in some states will not escape this time.

Remember that the NRA claims we just missed a total ban in the USA until they diverted Donald to just take out bumps stocks after Las Vegas. The truth of this is debated by some in the know from the NRA.
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My opinion is that anyone or any govt. that believes this will accomplish more than to make MILLIONS into outlaws ------- is a fool.

And if you can look back in history ,you will note how many Americans AND Canadians became "outlaws" during the 1920's.

And the 'only' freedom we lost was the right to drink alcoholic beverages,one that I do not see written into the U.S.Constitution !.

The Boston Tea Party would be a joke compared to such a bad/ILLEGAL idea.
 
I guess that Trudeau figures that this is a wonderful opportunity to portray all of his opponents as violent criminal rednecks that are unwilling to protect their fellow subjects from those obvious weapons of war.
Criminals or supporters of criminals, the lot of them... .
 
I have friends who live in Canada and they love their freedom as much as anyone. The problem is that humans the world over want to trust each other and their governments, but as noted above power corrupts or at least distorts and a powerful government becomes ever more so. Sooner or later, things which get in the way of this consolidation of power become unlawful, and we see that happening in New York and California as well as the Euro zone and Mexico. We are all just people trying to be secure in our existence, but the constraints tighten day after day.

I hope we can be supportive without being negative or condescending. Canadians inherited a culture with a fundamentally different outlook. And I think we could learn a lot from their healthcare system.
 
Ok, it was my understanding that Federal Canadian law already banned anything labeled "AR-15."
That they could still get Norinco items and the like, it just couldn't be an AR.

Are then slamming the barn door after burning the barn down?
 
GEM said:
I guess I am ranting because when I see just a string of cliches, I see a loss
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If they get people fired up to vote pro gun it's not a total waste, but yes, it takes more than rhetoric to convince fence sitters to take a stance and vote pro gun. Maybe the cliche gets their attention, but rational reasons get their votes.
 
FlSwampRat said:
Once again it's based on styling.
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Not entirely, reading the list, it looks like they also banned guns that can produce over 10000 J of energy (7375 ft lbs), and guns with a 20 mm or larger bore.

There is some amusing stuff in that ban list o_O

"(z.118) Missile Launcher FIM-43 Redeye;"
"(z.114) Missile Launcher 9K38 Igla;"
"(z.164) Recoilless Rifle FMK1 105MM;"
"(z.211) Rocket Launcher Bunkerfaust;"
"(z.215) Rocket Launcher RPG-29 Vampir;"
"(z.221) Russian Artillery M1942 Anti-Tank Gun;"
"(z.251) US Mortar XM224E3;"
"(z.099) Manville Manville Gas Gun;"
"(z.009) China Lake EX-41;"
 
General Geoff said:
Yep, leave it to Trudeau to list websites as part of an assault weapons ban. Shows just how half-baked this whole thing is.
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Someone spent time on it. Who ever heard of a "Manville Gas Gun"? How did they even find that?
 
Kind of wandering here. Close to a shutdown folks. Deleting some of that.
 
Self-imposed limits on sovereign power can disarm mistrust, but provide no guarantee of liberty and property beyond those afforded by the balance between state and private force.

~ Anthony de Jasay

I hate reading political books, but one day I am going to have to read "The State" by Anthony de Jasay. His observations that the state has a built in a built-in totalitarian bias ring true. The leaders of all states are looking to use the panic du jour to increase control and enforce passivity in their populations. Public safety is just a excuse to increase the power of the state over its subjects, and that is the forcing function for what the Canadian Government is doing.
 
Do we really think the Canadian government did this to institute tyranny in Canada?

Can we dial it back to the actual situation and its implementation.
 
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