Bolt action 223

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MistWolf said:
Critical thinking time-
- Shooting 5.56 ammo in a true SAAMI spec chamber can result in pressures reaching as high as 70,000 psi. Especially if the leade is cut to minimum length.
- If the leade is lengthened, pressure peak is reduced. That's why a 223 Wylde (and similar chambers) spec a longer leade. To fire 5.56 ammo safely.
- Not all 5.56 ammo is loaded to maximum pressure.
- 5.56 chambers have a reputation for being less precise than 223 chambers.
- Bolt action shooters look primarily for precision.

Gun makers are well aware of the above facts. You can bet they don't cut their 223 barrels with a shorter leade as specified by SAAMI because someone is going to run 5.56 ammo through the rifle. You can bet they won't mark their bolt action barrels as being chambered for 5.56 because shooters looking for precision will stay away in droves.

Just as marking a barrel 5.56 doesn't guarantee the chamber is cut to actual 5.56 dimensions, marking a barrel 223 doesn't mean it's cut to SAAMI dimensions. Doesn't mean it isn't.

Taking all the facts together, is it wise for a shooter to just start banging away with 5.56 ammo in a barrel marked 223? What if there's a chance that there's a perfect storm of minimum leade and maximum pressure? There's a reason serious reloaders measure the leade before getting started on any caliber.



223 ammo isn't loaded to less pressure. It's loaded to make full pressure in a chamber with a shorter leade. When fired in chambers with longer leades, pressure drops.

SAAMI & NATO use different methods to measure pressure and the two cannot be directly compared.
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I just looked at my original post and just as I suspected the numbers 556 aren't mentioned anywhere. You can bet I didn't mention those numbers for a reason.
 
MistWolf said:
Critical thinking time-
- Shooting 5.56 ammo in a true SAAMI spec chamber can result in pressures reaching as high as 70,000 psi.
Click to expand...
I would be interested to see a test report for this data point.

Regarding the reminder of your points, I think we are mostly agreeing, but I'm emphasizing real-world experience over theoretical possibilities. I do this based on years of my own and other's experience.

If shooting mil-surp (max pressure) 5.56 ammo in .223Rem chambers caused a problem, WE WOULD KNOW. We have generous anecdotal evidence of lots of other very rare issues (unsupported ruptures in .40 Glocks, .300BO in 223Rem, etc). The internet is highly efficient at amplifying rare-but-exciting problems; that it hasn't amplified this one is excellent evidence that there isn't a problem.

Also, as a handloader I have demonstrated in my own rifles that pressure signs vary more between chambers of the same caliber than they do between 223Rem and 5.56 spec chambers.
 
I recommend the Savage 12 if you want to get into precision inexpensively. Most every rifle mentioned in this thread will be a good choice, however. The target in my avatar was shot with a bone-stock Axis, not even an Axis-II. Savages are ridiculously accurate for the price, and a few upgrades (mostly the stock) will put you in cloverleafs quick.
I confess a love of Remington .223 bolts, particularly on the 40 action, but 700's also.
Dave DeLaurent's CZ is a classic. Beautiful rifle.

As for the .223/5.56 debate, I will add this. I had an H&R Handi-Rifle in .223 that I had to poke the brass out of whenever I fired M855 in it. It always stuck, and the primers flattened. While it can be done, I don't fire 5.56 in .223 chambers anymore. YMMV. Currently the problem is solved for me by the fact my only gun in either caliber right now is an AR in 5.56.
 
kidneyboy said:
I take it that you guys that actually shoot 223 bolt guns are pleased with them?
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I was sure enough pleased with the one I had. Mine was one of those Ruger 77s, stainless, with a Zytel, "boat paddle" stock - ugly, but functional.
I killed a few coyotes with that rifle, some rock chucks, and I don't know how many (dozens of them) ground squirrels a l-o-n-g ways off. The only reason I ever sold that handy little .223 bolt was because I decided I needed to have a 22 caliber rifle that was as fast as my wife's .22-250.
Yeah, my ego always has been kinda fragile, and I can't have my wife shooting a faster, more powerful rifle than what I shoot. Especially not when that woman jabs me about it. So I sold my Ruger .223 and bought a Kimber .22-250 - which BTW, has a longer barrel than my wife's Winchester .22-250.;)
 
@nature Boy’s new Shilen out front of his 12 BVSS might make some folks think less of the factory rifle.

I suppose in fairness, the group below IS ~50% larger than his.

These were the 3rd through 7th shots ever fired through my wife’s 12 BVSS, Oct-ish of 2009, using a simple Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x40 Duplex. “Breaking in” with cheap 50grn Rem UMC JHP’s. She cut it out and slid it under the plexiglass cover I had on my office desk a couple days later after cleaning out the range bag as a taunt, and although I changed desks since, the target has survived.

CD5A947C-B1B1-4B77-9804-30211B4213EF.jpeg
 
Most of my centerfire bolt guns will shoot that well with good handloads. I've been an accuracy nut for quite a while, but when a teen, I had a Stevens semi-auto that didn't shoot better than 5" at 50 yards, but never shot it for groups until several years of rat shooting/plinking. I think I traded it the same day it performed so badly, but after I got a really accurate .22 bolt-action rifle, I never got as many critters. Hmmm.
 
ifit said:
Very impressive Nature Boy
Curious on specs on bullets used

Can't go wrong with a savage, especially if you'd like to swap out barrels
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@Varminterror has rightfully called me out for cheating a bit here ;)

I did add a 30” Shilen match barrel with a 1:7 twist that’s throated for the 90g Berger VLDs

However, even with the stock 1:9 twist barrel it kept 69g SMK’s in 5 shot groups at 100 yards in the 1/2 MOA range consistently, but with barrel swaps so easy, all that does is make you want more.

My load with the 90g VLDs is 24.2g of Varget, Lapua brass, Fed 205M primers, +0.005 into the lands.

My 16 year old made NRA High Master shooting it at 600 yards in F/TR. It’s competitive with the .308’s at that range. Plus, it’s just plain fun to shoot
 
edwardware said:
I would be interested to see a test report for this data point.
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I read a well documented treatise on the subject, but don't recall where. I followed a link provided by a respected SME some years back, when I first got serious about learning what makes an AR tick. At the time, I didn't think to archive the information.

Regarding the reminder of your points, I think we are mostly agreeing, but I'm emphasizing real-world experience over theoretical possibilities. I do this based on years of my own and other's experience.

If shooting mil-surp (max pressure) 5.56 ammo in .223Rem chambers caused a problem, WE WOULD KNOW. We have generous anecdotal evidence of lots of other very rare issues (unsupported ruptures in .40 Glocks, .300BO in 223Rem, etc). The internet is highly efficient at amplifying rare-but-exciting problems; that it hasn't amplified this one is excellent evidence that there isn't a problem.

Also, as a handloader I have demonstrated in my own rifles that pressure signs vary more between chambers of the same caliber than they do between 223Rem and 5.56 spec chambers.
Click to expand...
As a reloader, you know that the leade has more influence on pressure than chamber dimensions. Roy Weatherby made his fortune and high velocity fame by using long leades in his proprietary calibers. That's not theory. That's real world practical application.

The designers of the 5.56 took a page from Weatherby's playbook by spec'ing a leade longer than the SAAMI 223, specifically for the purpose of higher velocity without increasing case capacity or pressure to dangerous levels.

70,000 psi is higher than normal, enough to accelerate wear on a modern rifle, but not high enough to guarantee an immediate catastrophic event. The proof load for an AR is 70,000 or 75,000 psi. Not enough to blow up a rifle with one shot, but not something you want to feed your rifle a steady diet of!

Yes, we're in agreement that the danger of firing 5.56 in a barrel marked barrel is often overstated. Where I take umbrage with your previous post is the cavalier dismissal of the issue entirely. Someone comes across that post, they might think there's no reason not to shoot 5.56 in grandpa's old Remington 40x when they would be better served measuring the leade first.
 
.308 Norma said:
I was sure enough pleased with the one I had. Mine was one of those Ruger 77s, stainless, with a Zytel, "boat paddle" stock - ugly, but functional.
I killed a few coyotes with that rifle, some rock chucks, and I don't know how many (dozens of them) ground squirrels a l-o-n-g ways off. The only reason I ever sold that handy little .223 bolt was because I decided I needed to have a 22 caliber rifle that was as fast as my wife's .22-250.
Yeah, my ego always has been kinda fragile, and I can't have my wife shooting a faster, more powerful rifle than what I shoot. Especially not when that woman jabs me about it. So I sold my Ruger .223 and bought a Kimber .22-250 - which BTW, has a longer barrel than my wife's Winchester .22-250.;)
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Serious injuries have trumped my ego. I shoot what I'm comfortable with and to heck with any thing else.

Nature Boy said:
I’d say down right filthy

View attachment 910515

View attachment 910516

View attachment 910517
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Great shooting.

So you cheated a little the stock barrel isn't that much different in accuracy. For f/tr you need that extra, most don't.
 
UPDATE:
Ned Christiansen posted the following to M4carbine.net in 2010-

Oddly, I have yet to run across more than maybe one AR-15 where headspace was not right. All the other easy stuff they miss sometimes and yet this is so rarely wrong.

Freebore and throat, that's another story. A friend recently did some pressure barrel testing and found this: "What does all this mean? In short, you can safely fire all 5.56 AND 223 ammunition in a gun properly chambered for 5.56. You MUST NOT fire 5.56 ammunition in a 223 rifle.

As case in point, I fired XM193 5.56 ammunition in a 223 test barrel with average pressures (conformal transducer) of 72,550 psi, and peak pressure registered at 76,250 psi. Continued shooting of 5.56 ammunition in guns not chambered for 5.56 will show many warning signs of over-pressure, such as flattening of primers, smearing of the head stamp, dropped primers, blown primers and pre-mature wear on extractors and bolts."

Another friend had a batch of department carbines with .223 chambers that had been shelved because of chronic popped primers. After they had been covered by enough other stuff in the armory and basically forgotten, he figured he could get away with a little experimentation (sshhhh....). He measured each chamber forward of the shoulder using the Stoney Point tool. He grouped and chrono'd them with XM193 and American Eagle, reamed them with my reamer, then re-tested.

Long story short, the one that measured the shortest in terms of chamber throat gave him velocities of up to 3400 FPS. I said 3400 FPS. These were 16" carbines. Three-thousand, four hundred feet per second. Who the hell needs a .22-250?!

The one that actually reached 3400 FPS..... popped it's primer, big surprise! He reamed the lot with my reamer and velocities came back down to where they should be in a 16" carbine-- in the 3000's, some in the 3100's (that XM193 is not wimpy stuff). And no more popped primers.

Bear in mind that my reamer makes a chamber that is actually a tad longer than 5.56 NATO. Is it an accuracy killer? Not in my testing-- I have actually found XM193 to group tighter with this chamber. This chamber is actually not so unlike what you'll find in Camp Perry guns optimized for the heavier bullets. Hope that helps.......
 
I have a mossberg mvp that is a great shooter. The cool thing about my mossberg is that it will take AR pattern magazines so you can have 10, 20 or 30 rounds at your disposal. I had the same thoughts you did 6 or 7 years ago. Don't want an AR but do want to shoot .223 so I bought the mossberg. Now I still shoot the mossberg but also own 2 AR15s.
 
I had a great shooting Rem 700 SPS Varmint in .223. I liked it but found my self limited to 52-55gr bullets. The 1:12 twist would not stabilize heavier bullets...I even had trouble with 63 gr bullets. As usual, Big Green missed the boat.
 
Varminterror said:
My guilty pleasure rifle for “100 yards and beyond” is a Savage 12 BVSS. Disgustingly accurate rifle. It’s a blind mag, heavy as a truck axle, and long, so I don’t use it for much other than paper/steel and prairie dogs, but it shoots ridiculously small groups. Even with a 1:9” twist, I shoot 73 ELD’s and 77 SMK’s out to 800, sometimes farther.

When I think “223 bolt action,” that’s the rifle which comes to mind.
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I’d love to see some pics of the beautiful lass
Please kind sir
 
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