HK 91 .308: Home Defense

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you would not notice until it's all over. 308 or 45.

After eleven shots each, one burns 55 grains of Bullseye at 20 thousand PSI, the other will have burned 495 grains of Varget at sixty thousand+ PSI.

I don’t want to hear either uncork.

But, forced a choice, I’ll take the larger bore at less pressure with a fast powder.

The risk of overpenetration in this thread is vastly overblown, especially if using defense specific ammo.

No, I think they’re right on the money.
No one said “Don’t use it.”, we said be careful with it. Yes, it does penetrate more relative to the other calibers suggested upthread.

Hornady’s load works the same for a .223 caliber bullet, which would penetrate less than a larger bullet of the same construction. Note they compare its penetration to a non-expanding, heavy, match style bullet.

The V-Maxs can handle a full load from a 30-06. They are not the most fragile of varmint style bullets.
They are still VERY impressive. Nearly perfect for the Blackout, but losing its subsonic properties.
For Hornady 30caliber bullet construction, I can’t wait to try the new 190 grain flat tipped. An expanding subsonic bullet for the Blackout aught to be an excellent Varmint bullet for the 30-06, or reduced recoil deer loads. But, I digress.

Both of my choices for HD at the moment are the most penetrating.
A 200grain Blackout and a 200grain 45Auto plated SWC.
I chose them because they are quiet, and will end to end a deer. My shots will be down the stairs and away from the house into the ground.
When I move to the Millpond I will need to rethink, as it has one floor and neighbors.

Penetration can’t be overstated. Enough is absolutely necessary. Too much can be mitigated and should be considered as well.

We own every bullet.
 
The risk of overpenetration in this thread is vastly overblown, especially if using defense specific ammo.

https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban#!/

Download the pdf spreadsheet to see full images of the gelatin tests.

Sure as long as you make a center of mass shot. A 9mm or .38 will stay in someone's arm, not a 7.62. I was shot in the arm with a .38 by another shooter at a range in Texas in 1987 or so. It was not fun but it still took two other guys to keep me from shooting the woman with my .45, so on that note maybe your right. But the thing that scares me the most about using any firearm in a self defense situation whether it is at home or anywhere in public is hitting an innocent bystander. With the 7.62 you could easily hit someone next door through a wall or two. I know for a fact that it will penetrate two house walls unless they are both brick. At any rate I would never consider using any 7.62 rifle for SD in the home, YMMV.
 
I guess if we are talking HK products then I would much rather have an HK93.

Inside? I think this is on the right track. I would go with the MP5. Even in mountainous terrain you will get 75 plus yards out of it.

I might as well let someone rob my house. If I fired my CETME in doors I between the brass flinging, muzzle blast and over penetration of the .308 I would probably do more damage firing the rifle inside than the burglary.
 
So will 9mm, .223 or just about any other caliber suitable for home defense.

Unfortunately, depending on what the walls are made of this may be true, but I don't believe it would be as bad. Where I live now, in HI, the homes are mostly made from a siding that is like 1/2" plywood and we have a heavy wood fence so I would hope that it would be contained. If I ever had to use a firearm; it would probably be a 9mm with hollow points. Where I lived previously, in PA, it was just vinyl siding and no fence so I did worry about it, but thank God nothing ever happened requiring use of a firearm.
 
I live in the sticks with no houses within my line of sight. Good backstops around 3/4 of the house too. but still... an HK91 is long and pretty heavy.
Without ears on, fire it indoors and your ears are done for.
It can be argued that you may not notice at the time, but you will later!
 
Wow an hk91, as long as shooting through a few walls isn't a problem, no propane tanks along the outer wall, no neighbors, ect.
But it does answer any threat, lions ,tigers bears, vehicles, should at least slow down a terminator, everything but killer flying drones.
 
Home defense with a .308 rifle?

Only if my legal defense is Johnnie Cochran.

And my home isn’t in a neighborhood, you know, with other houses well within range.

And only if I already hate the ability to hear music...

Literally, any other single choice would be better for home defense.

Like an original Heckler and Koch MP5 .

A .308 isn't optimal for HD, but as a cartridge, only because of noise impulse. Properly selected ammo, such as 110-grain TAP or 155-grain GMX, penetrates less than almost anything...and of course, a tiny bit of research will show that 9mm rounds are very overpenetrative in structures, which is just one of the reasons most SWAT/HRT have gone to carbines instead of subguns...

(Put otherwise, a full-auto subgun like the MP5 is in fact, close to the least useful HD piece.)

Anyway, the problem with the HK 91 for HD isn't really the ammo, it's the terrible ergos.

It really gets old when people who can't bother to either spend a few minutes doing research, or go out and test it themselves fail to understand that high velocity, light for caliber rounds penetrate LESS than traditional home defense choices like handguns and shotguns, in both tissue and in structure. Are there legitimate reasons to not want to use carbines for HD? Sure, they are:
1) Noise. Rifles are loud, and ear pro should be worn;
2) Cost. A decent carbine starts around $450, while a decent used revolver or shotgun might run half that.

These, and familiarity, are the only good reasons to NOT use a carbine for home defense. Claiming "dangers to neighbors" frankly just demonstrates ignorance of the most basic of firearm principles. Heavy, slow bullets penetrate more. Handguns work by firing heavy bullets slowly, while most rifles fire lighter bullets 2-3x faster. Rifles firing super-light bullets penetrate LEAST, sometimes not even reaching the minimum FBI standards.


John
 
Heavy, slow bullets penetrate more. Handguns work by firing heavy bullets slowly, while most rifles fire lighter bullets 2-3x faster. Rifles firing super-light bullets penetrate LEAST, sometimes not even reaching the minimum FBI standards.

You’re right.
Like my example, found here.:)
Both of my choices for HD at the moment are the most penetrating.
A 200grain Blackout and a 200grain 45Auto plated SWC.
I chose them because they are quiet, and will end to end a deer.

And here.
Penetration can’t be overstated. Enough is absolutely necessary.

Claiming "dangers to neighbors" frankly just demonstrates ignorance of the most basic of firearm principles.

Well, I own my bullets and where they land.
My neighbors probably appreciate that.;)

It really gets old when people who can't bother to either spend a few minutes doing research, or go out and test it themselves

Me too. One of my favorite bullets for my 30-06 is...
The V-Maxs can handle a full load from a 30-06. They are not the most fragile of varmint style bullets.
They are still VERY impressive. Nearly perfect for the Blackout, but losing its subsonic properties.
For Hornady 30caliber bullet construction, I can’t wait to try the new 190 grain flat tipped.
Terminal ballistics isn’t what is breaks this though. SinterFire has frangible 30 caliber ammunition that bests the TAP, the Trident is another bullet that gives minimal barrier penetration with maximum soft tissue damage, and wallet emptying.
The total package is not optimal, in my opinion.

Am I as well versed as many of the members here?

Nope.

But, I’d like to think I’m not ignorant. After all, I learned most of what I didn’t learn out in the hayfield, with water jugs and sand and old pants, here at The HighRoad...:)

What are some of your thoughts?
Sometimes, you gotta run watchya brung.
We all have the same information, we all draw the lines somewhere. I don’t have to make your choices. There is little doubt yours will work fine.
 
You’re right.
Like my example, found here.:)

I believe dangers from overpenetrating after hitting an aggressor are largely overblown. I personally want lower-penetration rounds in 5.56x45mm or .300 AAC or my Federal +P+ 115-grain JHPs for HD, but I'm not willing to fault anyone who knows the performance of his selected rounds and "owns" each one.



John
 
Well if civil war breaks out, and you are not planning on running and gunning, those 60 mags of penetrators from a reliable HK 91 may be about optimum from a sconce.
In the mid 80s I competed in early hi power practical competition with a tuned HK 91 and a 1.5-6 S&B scope in factory mounts. It was a move and shoot format and I won West Coast championship match in 86 at the Old Fort Ord as a civilian. I still have that old worn HK 91 in the tool box and alot of mags and crates of 200 round plastic West German battle packs in my remote stash , just in case :)
 
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Assuming the asking is because it's what is on hand, sure. Very reliable gun, a little kicky even compared to other .308s, but very solid gun and not too unwieldy. 18" barrel not the 21 of the FAL or 22 of an M14 (M1A) in their full rifle configs, so not that bad.

If no desire to get a new carbine, then go for it:

I'd 1000% get some defensive ammo to optimize over poking .30" holes in people and reducing the overpenetration in walls, etc. Gold Dot or TAP.

Then, start looking at:
  • Sights. RDS on a low mount. There are some very nice screw-down very, very low mounts (B&T is the general go to here) and then look to see if you can find/afford the integral base Aimpoint the Swedes put on their G3s (they call them Ak4s for googling) and it's nearly cowitnessed with irons.
  • Get a telescoping stock if you don't have one. Easier to store, but also shorter extended. Easier to run a shorter stock in all but prone.
  • Not sure of brand (but I'd start B&T) there are good rails, also in mil service. So now you can easily mount lights, lasers, whatever you want to the front.
    • Surefire also made adapters for light mounting without stock changes, but I forget details. And I suspect will be verging on collectible now as much of this stuff is but maybe you luck out on eBay.
 
I have a PTR91 and I love it, for no readily justifiable reason other than its Teutonic brutality. It's heavy. Firing without hearing protection is impossible without serious damage. And overpenetration would be a concern in my house. So, until last week, I would have ruled it out for non-end -of-days home defense. Or maybe if you live in the Swat Valley, or have a chalet outside Kandahar...

But given what's going on these days, I'm thinking it may be an inspired choice indeed.
 
Where will your $2000 plus rifle end up if you should need to use it for self defense? Who will be taking care of that rifle in the evidence locker?
 
Where will your $2000 plus rifle end up if you should need to use it for self defense? Who will be taking care of that rifle in the evidence locker?
If I have to use lethal force to protect myself I couldn't care less what I lost in monetary property value. At that point the gun has done it's job - saving your life. It can be replaced. It's certainly not more valuable than my life.
 
If I have to use lethal force to protect myself I couldn't care less what I lost in monetary property value. At that point the gun has done it's job - saving your life. It can be replaced. It's certainly not more valuable than my life.

I see your point, but if I have access to a less valuable firearm that would be a preferable choice.
 
The OP already owns the HK 91, and using a firearm for home defense is pretty rare, even right now with the riots. Having four to six months living expenses in the savings is also good home defense- keeps the bank or landlord at bay. You miss enough payments, eventually the sheriff comes knocking. A gun already in the security cabinet is better than another charge on the credit card.
 
Where will your $2000 plus rifle end up if you should need to use it for self defense? Who will be taking care of that rifle in the evidence locker?

When I was younger, I would have nodded my head in agreement as I read this. These days, if my life depended on it I’d beat them with a bar of gold if that’s all I had. Heck, I have to have MRI’s every year that cost more than that and when I leave the building, the money is gone, not returned to me ever, in any condition. That’s also just so I might be able to live a little longer or not an instant life saving measure, in and of itself.
 
What are some of your thoughts and experiences?
HK91 as primary for Home Defense, huh? IMO, that is a LOT of gun/cartridge/BLAST for such a purpose.

FWIW, I would never choose to fire such a rifle inside of my home unless I found myself bereft of all other choices.

If I were going to designate a rifle for HD, it would be handier and more easily aimed in low-light situations (since after dark seems to be Prime Time for trouble) ... an AR pistol or carbine with an RDS comes to mind. If low-light aiming were not an issue, an M1 Carbine would also serve my purpose well.
 
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