The Rise (and Fall?) of The Hollow Point....

I don’t see the Lehigh/Underwood bringing much to the table for 9mm, 45, and other full size “service” calibers where hollowpoints exist, work, and work consistently well.

Where the intriguing possibilities seem to lie, IMO, is helping a lowly .32 or .25 hit and possibly incapacitate like a 9mm, which would undeniably be a game changer, in that it would allow service-pistol stopping power from something dramatically smaller and more concealable, with less recoil and faster follow up shots.

Especially the lowly .25 ACP! The few folks I know that still keep one use ball because it's the only thing that feeds reliably in their guns. If you could get ball-like feeding with something akin to decent wounding capability it would make those mouse guns a lot more useful.

Mosin77 said:

calibers where hollowpoints exist, work, and work consistently well.

Click to expand...

except barriers. i think leo departments are looking at this because these bullets are barrier-blind like fmj bullets, yet still penetrate and create a large wound cavity.

i'm looking at them for my 380 auto and 9mm in a defensive capacity.

murf

WrongHanded said:

.......seems a lot like a straight up dismissal of even the potential that the results could be valid. And I don't understand why anyone would choose to so easily dismiss data, unless they just didn't like the results.

Click to expand...

Look into the source of that report and you'll see it looks a lot less like a "Joint Agency" deal and more like a random guy doing testing in his backyard.

Shawn Dodson said:

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin accurately replicates the inertial and shear forces of human soft tissues. Calibration ensures it cannot be "gamed". See pages 21-23 of this link - http://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/1997-Vol3No1.pdf

Click to expand...

This may be true but when we're talking about fluted bullets which are claimed to cause damage via cavitation. The fluted bullets, like most bullets, can cause impressive-looking cracks and fissures in the gelatin, but they would not cause these cracks and fissures in human tissue.

WrongHanded said:

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the data represented isn't accurate. It's also not the only testing I've found.

Click to expand...

I've seen testing in pieces of meat which shows it make bigger holes than a JHP. For example:



But it is still questionable because dead tissue does not behave like live tissue as is clear to anyone who has handled a steak or a ham.

Another opinion from Paul Harrell:

WrongHanded said:

Okay, here's another thought to ponder.

How likely do we think it is that any LE agency will start using this ammo? How much positive result testing on living tissue would be required by a department to switch to something unconventional? (Assuming cost isn't a factor)

Click to expand...

Extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future, first of all, cost, and second, they usually pick proven, recommended ammunition, while this goes directly against the advice they have been given for decades and will not be recommended by the usual FBI gelatin experts who they might rely on. Third, there may be a greater risk for overpenetration.

"We are pleased to release the first of our FTM-EXD, Enhanced Fluid Transfer Monolithic projectile designs. The EFTM provides the outstanding performance of our XD line at a very desirable price point. This release is the culmination of two years' development of a highly efficient cold forming manufacturing process."

The Enhanced Fluid transfer part of the name refers to the Philips screwdriver shape of the bullet. This design is intended to displace more tissue and cause more damage than other bullets as it spins through an object and the vanes displace more tissue or fluid. The Monolithic part refers to it being made of only one material, a solid copper bullet.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/9mm-luger-90-grain-xtreme-defender?variant=31398017335353

WrongHanded said:

Yep, a box of 50 rounds from Underwood for $45. Last I looked at Lucky Gunner, a 50 round box of Federal HST 147gr was $43.

I think it's likely that with mass production using this new method, a solid copper projectile (even with such a design as the XD) might be more efficient to produce than a modern bonded JHP.

Click to expand...

WOW!

I was getting 50 round boxes of the HST for $29.99 at the local cop shop.

lehigh phillips head screwdriver bullets are not what will eventuslly replace jhp. any more than glasers replaced jhp. if you werent alive in the 1980s, glasers were a gimmick/trick/novelty cartridge that some gunnies bought back then. good marketing had folks buying it up like the lehighstuff nowadays.

Happy with 124 grain HSTs or GoldDots. No real need to think any further, just injects confusion and gobble-de-gook.
Live long and prosper.

Lots of 124 gr. HSTs at my LGS. going for $39.95/50. Well worth it to replenish what I've shot in the past year.

Texas10mm said:

WOW!

I was getting 50 round boxes of the HST for $29.99 at the local cop shop.

Click to expand...

Those days are past and gone. At least for now.

I have tested "Funky Science Shaped" bullets in hunting rifles, on things that are big, mean, and want to kill you.

These are the bullets I now use on dangerous game hunts, and you can rest assured that I did not rely on advertisements or Youtube videos to make my final choice.

In soft tissues they do produce wound channels that are significantly larger than caliber, they track straight, penetrate deep, break bones and anything else in their path. In short, they penetrate deeper than any soft nose bullet, as deep or deeper than any conventional solid, straighter than any conventional solid, and make a big friggin' hole that looks as good as any premium soft.

I tested Lehigh bullets in pistol calibers on inanimate media, and the extrapolation from what I saw with these to what I have observed with rifle calibers was a no-brainer.

Given the choice, I'll pick a Lehigh or equivalent over any JHP for my carry gun.

Texas10mm said:

WOW!

I was getting 50 round boxes of the HST for $29.99 at the local cop shop.

Click to expand...

And you still can, if you have a LEO affiliation. Vista Outdoors (Federal’s parent company) has two tiers of pricing for HST’s in 50-round boxes. Us unwashed masses pay ~$40 (You can get them for $38), but LEO sales are half that price.

Phaedrus/69 said:

Those days are past and gone. At least for now.

Click to expand...

That was in April. They had cases of them sitting on the floor.

Texas10mm said:

That was in April. They had cases of them sitting on the floor.

Click to expand...

Well, April was 500K coronavirus cases and a hundred riots ago. But yeah, I was buying 147gr HST for $35/50 not all that long ago.

For the moment, I do not see an LEA going to a non-expanding bullet. However, the military has a constant problem with the HAGUE Convention, so maybe a military or military controlled law enforcement agency might try them.
If I remember right, one of the reasons for developing the FEDERAL "Guard Dog" rounds (also known as expanding full metal case ammo) was military interest.

I will stick with FEDERAL HST ammo in my +P .38 Special revolvers, 9m.m. and .40 S&W handguns for now. I know what they can do and the results were proven in the street.

If the "screw head" ammo turns out to work as well as advertised, then I may switch. Till then, I happy with what I have.

JIM
P.S.-----They are right about the price jump on HST. It went from $30.00 a box of 50 six months ago to $50.00 a box at the gun show two weeks ago.

DR505 said:

Fluid non-compressibility is a strong force. We use explosively driven water to cut steel. Works like a charm.

Click to expand...

Yeah, sure is. Saw an idiot in flip flops pressure washing his driveway and go across his foot with the spray about 2" from the wand. Messy.

FlSwampRat said:

Yeah, sure is. Saw an idiot in flip flops pressure washing his driveway and go across his foot with the spray about 2" from the wand. Messy.

Click to expand...

Ouch!!! I know that hurt. His foot, pride, and wallet I imagine. Back on subject I carry Leigh defenders in my lcp. Bought some in 9mm. Haven't ran them through my Glock or PC9. Seriously debating getting some for my 44 and when I find some where to hunt. Try them out on hogs or deer.

Question for those who have studied the matter:

We know the principle works with something like a rifle or relatively high velocity handgun. How does it work in the slower calibers, either “big and slow” like .45acp, or “small and slow” like .32acp/.32 long -I’m sure it’s as good as or a little better than FMJ (provided it will feed) but is the velocity sufficient for the desired “fluid cutting effect?”