2023: current thinking on defensive loads?

[LimaCharlie]

All of the new and improved bullets today may work 5% better than the lead bullets I was shooting in the 1950s.

 

[golden]

I will go with proven ammo when I can. The copper bullets may be the next big thing, but my agency issued HST for a number of years and we had no complaints at all from the field. Now we use the low bid bonded 147 grain ammo. I think they are just trying to make sure everyone qualifies.

When I started, we carried .357 magnums because of mixed results with .38 +P+ in the field. Since then, all the ammo we had been issued has been before standardizing on GOLDEN SABRE and then HST were conventional, but high velocity. I was issued 9m.m. +P+ for carry till we went to the .40 S&W. Then we carried a 155 grain jhp traveling at 1200 fps. These conventional loads worked well in the field.

The big advantage of premium bullets like GOLD DOT, HST and the others is that they can equal the performance of conventional bullets loaded to higher, sometimes much higher velocity. They just get the job done without the heavy recoil and louder bang and often brighter flash.

I now load my .357 with premium bullet .38 Special +P ammo when it is to be used for self defense.

Jim

 

[CDW4ME]

I start reading about hollow point ballistics and I know I'm not going to spend the $$ on finding out if it runs reliably for 100s of rounds, so - I just carry the ball ammo I practice with, cuase it has been tested. In a revolver I'll carry hollow point self defense ammo, but for me in a semi, I just carry ball. It will penetrate more and not expand, but sometimes you actually want more penetration and you do need to penetrate more than expand, so - ammo is all different and different types have strenths and weaknesses, so - since I know ball will cycle and go bang, I just pick penetration over expansion and roll with it.

^ Said about 32 FMJ
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/non-expanding-bullets.920828/page-2#post-12668838
"I have a .32 ACP pistol, and older CZ-70 and carry Fiocci 7.65 Browning, which is the same as 32 ACP, but a little different and a little hotter. I just load it with FMJ as penetration is needed before expansion as far as I understand and it is easy to shoot quickly and accurately"
Its clear gel, but Lucky Gunner testing for a visual for comparison:
32 FMJ - it appears to me it may have tumbled in the initial pic.
Those two bullet tracks at bottom of 2nd pic is what I'd expect from FMJ or HP that did not expand, or tumble.

Since 9mm ammo was in the chart in OP - I'll select a bullet I have in one (or more) of my Glocks.

Maybe a 32 with FMJ is all you have, or best you have, IDK.
Me personally, I'd skip going out to eat a couple times and/or going to a movie if needed when it comes to the ammo I'm betting my life on.
I prefer the potential disruption (and expanded diameter) seen from the 9mm HST bullets versus the 32 FMJ - read any FMJ - as I think they have better ASAP potential.

 

[JTHunter]

There is a little trick I have done to the HP ammo in my various handguns. On a semi-jacketed HP (exposed lead), I take a razorknife and put 4-6 "slices" in the lead in order to speed the "mushrooming". On jacketed HPs, I take that same knife and lightly groove the already existing grooves, again to make it easier for the bullet to mushroom. If I need penetration, the third round is a FMJ.

 

[jstert]

i choose defensive ammo that is affordable and reliable. only rounds on target count as we dont yet have handgun ammo with proximity fuses. i don’t believe in separate ammo for training and carry; what i learned in 1972 courtesy of uncle sam.

my training ammo is my carry ammo because i am familiar with the former, because i can afford to shoot more of it. in rimfire (yes i do carry a ruger sr22 and a naa bugout 22lr), my training and carry 22lr ammo is cci minimag, whichever is cheaper between 36gr hollowpoint or 40gr solid point. in centerfire, fmj ball ammo serves both roles admirably (though if i have 148gr wadcutters for my 38sp snubbies i use it).

 

[Simple Shooter]

1. The difference between bullet types isn't as dramatic as most people think it is.

Exactly. It’s a marketing game to get us to buy stupid expensive ammo. The bullets are designed to give a specific depth of penetration and look pretty when recovered from the Jello, because we have been conditioned to believe that is the mark of effectiveness.

 

[wayneinFL]

The copper bullets are probably great. When they're adopted by law enforcement, plentiful and relatively inexpensive, I'll buy them. I'll buy them assuming I've already run out of that case of Remington LE 9mm I bought years ago. Or the Speer LE 38 special.

I doubt the benefits of the copper bullets are enough to render the lead JHPs obsolete by comparison.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

2 things for me I’d be waiting for

1) real world use data, likely from LEO. I’m not interested in videos of deer or whatever allegedly shot by the folks trying to sell the new thing

2) projectile prices being reasonable to developing practice loads (or, heck practice ammo) that have similar shooting to the often lighter defensive load.

Until then I’ll stick with what’s been tried and true, and also affordable.

This for me as well. Lab testing is well and good, but I prefer to rely on cumulative actual shooting data. There's no guarantees, and all shootings are individual events, but if a round is widely used in law enforcement, I think that's the best testimony for it as if there were consistent failures to perform possibly attributable to ammo selection, the thousands of departments across the country would reasonably start gravitating towards the consistent performers in their collective experience. Plus, obviously, this ammo gets cheaper because it's available in LE boxes (Ranger, Gold Dot, HST) of 50 rather than boutique boxes of 20.

 

[dweis]

I carried 9mm for a few decades. I loaded Federal HST JHP 124 gr, In felt confident that it would be more than sufficient for SD with a 3 inch barrel or longer. A recently arthritis forced me to 380 in the form of a Ruger Security 380 with 3.42 inch barrel. But past research informed me that 38o and JHP could be ver iffy in terms of expansion. I say several tests on YouTune of the 380 Underwood Extreme Defender ammo. I was impressed. The link is to a Paul Harrel video testing a variety of 380 ammo. That video led me to decide to adopt the Underwood round. It simply cause more damage that any JHP he tested. That confirmed other test I had seem with the same result. I trust Harrel as a reviewer. While he said he would not adopt the ammo for 380, he did not say way. But he has an aversion to specialty ammo. I do not. The other thing I learned watching test was that the solid copper bullet was barrier blind. It performed the same regardless of what it had to penetrate. I now carry the 389 Underwood ammo.

The video is at:

 

[Jim Watson]

Do you know if anyone/any agency has done such a thing?

Probably not since Thompson and Lagarde

Not that I know of for pistols. The Army tested .276 and .256 Pedersen on anesthetized pigs and goats.

Oh, wait, everybody knows about the Strasbourg Goat Tests. Don't we?

On a semi-jacketed HP (exposed lead), I take a razorknife and put 4-6 "slices" in the lead in order to speed the "mushrooming".

Ooh, ooh, Gangster Cut Nose Dum-Dums.

 

[FL-NC]

Practice with lots of ball ammo, find a US made HP round that your gun will feed reliably, and accept that all handguns suck for man-stopping, but fortunately they also hold more than 1 round.

 

[C-grunt]

Im very very skeptical of these rounds. I dont believe the fluting is going to destroy tissue outside of the crush cavity. At least not in duty caliber handguns. You start launching these things out of a magnum, we probably have a different story.

Remember that ballistic gel is made to be a repeatable standard to test bullet penetration and expansion because those two factors were found to have a strong correlation to what was seen effective in actual shootings. The FBI doesn't score the temporary stretch cavity or the damage done to the gel outside of the crush cavity because that has not shown to correlate to actual wounding in the real world.

 

[WrongHanded]

Im very very skeptical of these rounds. I dont believe the fluting is going to destroy tissue outside of the crush cavity. At least not in duty caliber handguns. You start launching these things out of a magnum, we probably have a different story.

I largely agree with this. I believe the flutes work.... at 1500fps. I don't believe they do much at 1000fps. The difference is the pressure in the jets of fluidized tissue being displaced. Water from a garden hose won't hurt you, but put it through a water jet table and it could cut your hand off. I'm not saying the jets from the flutes are that powerful, but I don't know that they're not. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has run the calcs.

 

[cfullgraf]

A hit with something trumps a miss with anything else. Shoot what gives you the best accuracy and best reliability.

 

[InTheSwamp]

I try to stick with the old, proven GKR's recommendations for self defense ammo. I don't know how often, if at all he updates the list, but those still work and are carried by the uniformed community all over the country.

The new offerings by Lehigh (now part of Wilson) get a lot of praise.

 

[golden]

There is a little trick I have done to the HP ammo in my various handguns. On a semi-jacketed HP (exposed lead), I take a razorknife and put 4-6 "slices" in the lead in order to speed the "mushrooming". On jacketed HPs, I take that same knife and lightly groove the already existing grooves, again to make it easier for the bullet to mushroom. If I need penetration, the third round is a FMJ.

JTHUNTER,

HAVE YOU ACTUALLY TESTED YOU KNIFE CUT AMMO?

I remember when a well known gun writer tried this with some .25ACP and it did not expand. Also, what happens if the bullet fragments and then comes apart. Will it still work? You may also open yourself up to legal action for making "INHUMANE DUM-DUM AMMO". Go ahead and laugh, but never underestimate the stupidity or lack of integrity of a prosecutor or litigation attorney.

If you select a premium round like FEDERAL HST, REMINGTON Golden Sabre, SPEER Gold Dot or WINCHESTERA PDX, if sued, you can say you choose the ammo that the police use and that cannot be inhumane. Also, the premium stuff will work, your knife job may not.

Just my experience,

Jim

 

[CDW4ME]

JTHUNTER,

HAVE YOU ACTUALLY TESTED YOU KNIFE CUT AMMO?

If you select a premium round like FEDERAL HST, REMINGTON Golden Sabre, SPEER Gold Dot or WINCHESTERA PDX,

The new bullet protocol is cutting deeper grooves into HP ammo - Its a promotion for qualified people at police departments.
Patrol, Sergeant, Dare officer (arguably easier than Sergeant), Detective, ... HP mutilator... (day shift and lunch is not interrupted for anything)
Specially trained officers (HP mutilators) take the departments HP like HST or Gold Dots and cut the grooves deeper, its top secret.
And, just in case, Bang - Bang (double tap) the attacker doesn't go down, next round is FMJ.

 

[Gun-Reck]

If anything, Perps have gotten a little fatter, and more likely to be armored.

So, stick with the heavy-for-caliber subsonic hollow-points, and start looking for a nose or pelvic girdle as soon as possible.

 

[sgt127]

I carry a few different guns. A 9mm Sig P365. I carry the old RCMP 115 gr Federal hollow point. Basically a Slightly downloaded Federal 9BP +P+. Because I have over 1000 rounds of it.

Or, a Ruger SP101. With 158 gr Hardcast Semiwadcutters.

Or.. a P239 in 357 SIG with Gold Dots. Because I have a lot of that ammo.

I don’t care anymore. I use what I have. I prefer penetration over expansion. More velocity is good.

We can pretend 115 gr 9mm at 1100 fps is the same as 125 Gr at 1350 fps. Fine. I think that extra energy is going somewhere and prefer the 357 SIG.

I think that 158 Gr hardcast .357 is breaking things and, getting to the squishy stuff better.

Pick one. That you can afford a couple thousand rounds. Shoot it. Make sure it runs in your gun. Know where it hits.

Stop. Carry that.

 

[357smallbore]

I've chosen to stick with what I believe will and has always done the job.
If I do my part, bad guy ain't walking away.

9mm - 124 HST or UMC 115 JHP
38 Special - 148 wadcutters
357 Mag - Remington 125 sjhp or 158 sjhp
44 Special - 200 Blazer JHP
22 WMR - Speed Gold Dots 40 or CCI 32 +V

 

[Hikingman]

Research what the FBI carries, and spend many hours on both study of ballistics and what is available for purchase.

 

[roscoe]

When I joined TheFiringLine in the late 90s this was literally the exact conversation people were having. After years of discussion, citation of FBI results, gel tests, gallon jugs of water blasted to smithereens, the repeated result was this: Winchester white box was as effective as the most expensive boutique 9mm and .45 ammo out there. At that point I just stopped looking at the threads altogether.

Next up - bear load threads from the 90s.

 

[sgt127]

Next up - bear load threads from the 90s.

Ya know. That might actually be legit. The .460, .475 and .500 weren’t around then.

We just quibbled about .41 vs .44.

And debated what .45 LC revolver was least likely to blow up when you hot rodded it.

 

[41 Mag]

I don't specifically carry, but I do have something along for the ride on road trips usually ro the country and back.

Over the years and hunting with handguns I've had plenty of opportunities to test different bullets from multiple platforms on feral hogs at ranges from a foot to out past 100yds. I used solids, and HP's of just about all makes and settled on the Gold Dot as the best overall.

I haven't had the opportunity to use the HST or the newer all copper jobs as of yet. I did run the Golden Sabre in a couple of calibers and was very disappointed in their performance. We had anything we could find to use at one time or another as there were literally hundreds of hogs we were weeding out of the swamps and pastures of farmlands.

While this isn't a testament to two legged critters, those 4 legged ones are a tough lot that usually don't go down easy. The GD simply shut things down faster than most anything else. As for barriers like denim, well I have yet to see any gell test where there could be up to 2" of dried gumbo clay and an inch or so of bristle like hair, but those GD rolled right on through.

As for what is in anything I have at hand at the time of crises, it will likely be either the GD or a similar home cast. As mentioned, a hut with anything is better than nothing, and I can't call time out to switch over to something vogue while a situation is progressing.

 

[Old_Grouch]

Research what the FBI carries,

Not necessarily a good metric. On April 11th, 1986, while agencies around the country were carrying various semi-autos chambered in 9mm and .45, revolvers in .357 Mag (actually loaded with .357 Magnum ammo) the FBI was carrying revolvers loaded with .38 Spl.
It was a bad day. According to them the whole disaster was not a problem of poor tactics and/or lack of training; It was the sidearms and ammo.

I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion of doing an in-depth study of ballistics.