2023: current thinking on defensive loads?

Since there's still no conclusive evidence that terminal performance differences due to caliber within the service pistol class have a significant effect in terms of actual shooting outcomes (the debate continues--it will end when there's conclusive evidence), it's going to be doubly hard to make the argument that different loadings within a given caliber will be a game changer.

What to look for?

You get a significant benefit from ammunition that expands properly vs. FMJ/non-expanding ammunition. It creates a blunt trauma effect which, although it doesn't reliably cause wounding, does provide a notification effect--it lets the person know they've been shot. This is important because that's not always the situation with non-expanding pistol ammo. People can be shot with FMJ during a chaotic encounter and not realize it until later. And we want attackers to know they've been shot because psychological stops are a major factor in the effectiveness of handguns for self-defense.

You get a significant benefit from ammunition that penetrates sufficiently to meet the FBI criteria. This makes it more likely that a loading has the ability to physically disable an attacker. If the attacker is disinclined to give up after being shot, or is chemically altered to the point that their mental functions and pain sensations are dulled, you need a loading that can go deep enough to get the job done.

You get a HUGE benefit from ammunition that functions reliably in your firearm. Does it feed, extract and eject properly? Does it jump crimp or setback? This means you will want to be able to buy enough of it to actually shoot a decent amount of it through your carry gun(s). This is even more important if the loading is unconventional in some way. I would want to shoot a decent amount of of a defensive loading through each gun I planned to use that loading in for self-defense--maybe 50 minimum for something pretty conventional, 100 minimum for something unusual or unconventional. Want to carry a round with a weird profile that could affect feeding in a semi-auto? If you have one carry gun and a backup--that's a couple hundred rounds. A home defense gun using the same loading? Another 100 rounds. "These cool monometal rounds machined to look like a space satellite are super-cool and work differently than JHPs so they must be better. But I can't afford to buy 300 of them just for practice and function proving! That would cost more than I spent on my carry gun!" That's a good point--just make sure you are actually getting the correct point. If you can't afford to prove your self-defense round in your self-defense guns, then maybe you want to choose something else so that you know you have something that works when you need it to.
 
I like the more innovative stuff, like Federal Syntech Defense. Works wonders on hogs I found out recently.
 
The new “fluid dynamics” type bullets promise a lot. All the wounding potential of an expanding hollowpoint, or maybe even more, with the penetration of an FMJ, and maybe the feeding reliability of an FMJ too.

Personally I’ll wait until I see real world proof of these claims. If these things are as good as their marketing claims, then eventually a major police force will adopt them, and real world information about their actual stopping power (beyond gel simulations which can to some extent be read like tea leaves to interpret them how you wish) will exist. At that point everyone will either switch over (if they’re obviously superior) and prices will come down…… or results will be mixed/about the same, in which case the current status quo is maintained. Or results will be terrible, in which case the current top class JHP designs will remain the go-to.

IF real world adoption by LEO happens, and it’s proven that they’re better, the next rabbithole will be “how much better?” Suddenly .380 and .32 may be mooted as duty calibers again, if their Fluid Dynamics ammo can equal todays 9mm JHP. “There’s no reason for a heavy recoiling 9mm when a .380 gets you entirely adequate wounding and a lot less recoil……” Ahem.
 
I wasn't gonna weigh in here, but then I remembered that I'm trying to reach 10K posts.

So much great stuff out there. I've pretty much settled on (in 9mm, of course) either Speer Gold Dots or Federal HST JHPs in +P 124 grain. Both of which were the issue round for my last employer and pretty much every LE agency on the West Coast.

In .45 ACP, I've still got so many Hydra-Shok 230 grain JHPs left I'll never need to buy any more .45 for personal defense.
 
It was a bad day. According to them the whole disaster was not a problem of poor tactics and/or lack of training; It was the sidearms and ammo.

Sadly. 115 Gr ball likely would have perforated Mattix…through the lungs and the heart…. And, shut him off.
 
I spent a ton testing hundreds, if not a thousand rounds of Sig V-Crown in my XD-S and am not interested in repeating the exercise with another round. I’m not worried about the performance of my defensive round as it’s a proven commodity.
 
The product development team meets for the week:

“We need a new hook to sell drastically overpriced ammo. Anyone got an idea?”

“How about putting a piece of rubber in the hollow point?”

“Hornady is already doing that.”

“We could use really light bullets at a very high velocity! Or slow heavy ones!”

“About a dozen companies are doing that one. We need something that will get people to pay at least $1.00 - $1.50 per round. Preferably in little boxes of 20 so they have to buy at least two to fill their magazines. Should we design something that looks pretty when shot into Jello? Pretty sells.”

“Have you seen HST? Looks like a dainty little flower when recovered. How do we beat that?”

“How about a round that opens up and looks like a female body part?”

“NO. I mean…. Um… well?… No, no, no. We just can’t do that. At least not yet. We’ll save that as a last resort.”

“Ooohhh! Screwdrivers are the preferred weapon for assaulting people on NYC subways. Can we do something with that? Maybe like a Phillips head? Or a star drive?

“Also already been done. Also one that looks like a hole saw.”

“As long as we come up with something different than everyone else, I am sure marketing can skew some test results, give it a fancy name, and design a cool box to convince them to spend AT LEAST $1.50 per round.”

“Ok, folks. Let’s spend this week innovating and see what we can get them to buy!”
I bought those rounds with the plus sign on front in 45. ACP and almost had to load them one at a time in my 1911. They had to be aligned just right to feed.
 
I don't claim to know what is best. I have been carrying 165 grain Rem. Golden Saber bonded jhp in my .40. In 9 I have 124 grain standard pressure for compact Hornady & Remington. I just got in some 147 grain Federal HST for my micro 9. I dig around online, look at ballistic gel tests. Watch videos, etc. Everything I have seen indicates heavy for caliber bullets do better from short barreled 9mm pistols. Some bullets expand more reliably than others. All I know is to try to examine the data that is available & make a choice.
 
Not necessarily a good metric. On April 11th, 1986, while agencies around the country were carrying various semi-autos chambered in 9mm and .45, revolvers in .357 Mag (actually loaded with .357 Magnum ammo) the FBI was carrying revolvers loaded with .38 Spl.
It was a bad day. According to them the whole disaster was not a problem of poor tactics and/or lack of training; It was the sidearms and ammo.

I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion of doing an in-depth study of ballistics.
I honestly believe the FBI agents in that shooting were woefully unprepared for what they were getting into. Of course the top brass was unwilling to admit that tactics & training were what got those men killed.
 
That's....actually what's on my hip as I'm typing this. Nice dichotomy of new vs old, I suppose.

Thanks for all the replies, folks.
yeah. I'm no expert, but I think it might be the best general purpose projectile out there for .38 Special. Modern hollow points IMHO are better for self defense, but hard cast is probably better for woods/trail use. That old LSWC kind of fits in the middle and does both decent, but isn't that hard to reload different cartridges based on what you're doing. I'm kind of looking at the same questions currently, and then - the question if I would actually remember to swap out, and if I don't probably LSWC for the win, good all around old school, decades of real world use.
 
Ah, I misread you. And I'm a bit slow on coffee intake this morning. I'm carrying 158gr SJHPs in 357. Still, as most here seem to be saying, they all work well enough if you put them in the right place.
 
I honestly believe the FBI agents in that shooting were woefully unprepared for what they were getting into. Of course the top brass was unwilling to admit that tactics & training were what got those men killed.
The irony here is that the incident spawned research, development and adoption of a totally new sidearm/caliber; yet the fight stopper was a round of .38 Spl. (see my sig line)
 
So, we still trying to count the number of angels (or fairies, it seems) that are able to gather and dance on the head of a pin?:neener:

The gathering of noted medical sources experienced in wound ballistics, at the end of the 80's, and the then-newly developed ballistics testing, gave us the next step in designing hollowpoint duty ammunition beginning in 1990. Got us a new caliber that year, too (.40 S&W).

The passage of time and ongoing attention to the field of wound ballistics, both in the lab and in the street, have given us some results which seem to cause tummy upset ... because all the major service calibers, using any of the modern JHP (or polymer-plugged nose cavities) designs, seem to offer similar results under similar conditions. Imagine that.

If the "fluid dynamic" bullets were of sufficient interest to the LE/Gov/Mil wound ballistics experts who study these things for a living, meaning reviewing both lab testing and actual street results, they'd be buying them in great quantities (and their buying power would make it inexpensive for them). Not happening yet, though. Instead, we're seeing frangible for training needs that require it, and modern hollowpoint designs (whether 'empty' or 'filled' nose cavities, since both seem to be working fine).

In the meantime, the retail consumer market is ripe for the picking for selling specialty bullet designs. :)

What I look for in defensive ammunition:
Reliable feeding & functioning.
Consistent accuracy from specific guns.
Modern design (resists plugging)
I can afford to use it for ongoing training/drills/practice.

Unless you're told you must use something specific (employer), pick what you wish (and which is legal) and suit yourself.

Perhaps it might be prudent to keep in mind that misses are bad, because they're going to hit something, or someone, 'downrange'. Perforations (of the intended threat) can be bad too, for much the same reasons.

Just some thoughts I keep in mind.
 
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Until they actually come out with handgun rounds that perform like rifle rounds, I really dont see the point in getting all wound up and spending a lot of time, money, or effort on any of this. If you have to shoot, you still wont be shooting any differently with any of the handgun rounds, no matter what they claim. How can you?

Personally, Id spend the extra money on more practice ammo, and work on making sure I was keeping my real world skills up. At least until they get a 9mm to perform like a 50BMG. :)
I 100% agree with this.

About 10 years ago I took a class from an instructor who trained a lot of LE agencies, including DoD.

From his interactions with these agencies, he found that higher velocity rounds seemed to have a better success rate. 357 Sig in an auto was his first choice but because it is rare and hard to find, he carried 127 +P+ Winchester Ranger T in 9mm.

My preference is the 124 +P Gold Dot. My only experience with it is hunting rabbits and it worked 100%.
 
I'd like to start with the statement that I'm not looking for a caliber war regardless of how fun those might be.

Really, I'm trying to update my understanding of appropriate cartridge based on modern research. I made some of my initial opinions in the 1980's and 1990's (as did my instructors) and things have changed quite a bit since then.

When I carry it's generally:
  • A 9mm 1911 loaded with 124gr HSTs or GDs
  • A 45ACP 1911 loaded with 230gr HSTs
  • A 357 loaded with 125gr JHPs of some sort - generally Federal or Remington SJHPs that are cheap old technology that still seem to perform as well as they ever did.
I'm comfortable with the performance of all of these, but I wonder if these new copper solids that depend on fluid dynamics for terminal performance (like the Lehigh Defense bullets (now Wilson Combat, I think) and competition like the G9) don't change the equation a bit. Traditional doctrine suggest I should only be concerned with having a round that penetrates deep enough in gel (but not too deep), is accurate, and is something I can control.

Intuitively, and after talking with some friends with MD after their name on their business cards, I have to think that the size of the permanent wound cavity matters when talking about dangerous mammals of the two- or four-legged variety. And the permanent wound cavity of these new rounds seems significantly larger than with traditional hollow points.

Here's something listed on the G9 defense web page from a third party (that I've never heard of, honestly) evaluating their rounds. The G9 and Lehigh Defense ammo (below the blue line) had a permanent wound cavity (in the red boxes) that's nearly an order of magnitude greater than from traditional rounds, at least when measured volumetrically which is non-traditional:

View attachment 1163224

I can't find it now, but the 45ACP has an even larger permanent wound cavity - I remember it being 50% to 100% greater.

View attachment 1163225


View attachment 1163226


We've all seen the results of the Extreme Defender and G9 bullets vs pork shoulders too, with the huge holes they leave.

So I guess my question is this:

This fluid dynamics thing seems to be working, and it's been long enough that it's not really a passing fad.

So why isn't everyone choosing one of these sorts of rounds as their carry ammo of choice? I can't in my 9mm 1911s because the overall cartridge length is long enough to present feeding issues, but if your gun feeds it why aren't you using it?

I'm missing something here. What is it?
The Strasbourg Tests 1991 were informative. (https://content.libsyn.com/p/a/2/b/...FOuJXJ~xnOg3O6Cw__&Key-Pair-Id=K1YS7LZGUP96OI)
 
My day job is an autopsy technician. This has colored my opinion a bit.
Keep in mind I've had only a statistic pool of three or four, but those 'fluid dynamic' bullets I've pulled out of people did seem to have some affect better than FMJ, but not as good as a HP that expanded. A slight ring of hemorrhaged liver here, a tear in a kidney there. With JHP, that liver would have had laceration only slightly smaller than the 'hemorrhage ring'--for lack of a better term or pathological education--and likely would have torn that kidney as well.
Remember that nothing reacts just like the tests; gel is an 'average' of components, and is useful for testing but in large part because it's a consistent medium.
I haven't seen enough cases involving these to 100% make a call one way or the other. They just aren't common enough, and at least half of my small experience pool has been self-inflicted in a manner that the placement makes the expansion irrelevant.

What the work has taught me is that function is 100% important. Terminal effects depend 90% on placement. There's not much in a human body that isn't important, but it affects the speed at which someone stops doing what they were doing.

Discounting self-inflicted injuries (which are often the most expensive or available rounds), our most common recovered bullets are, in order of totals 1) FMJ. Many go unrecovered from the victim, many leave small holes and minimal laceration bordering them; 2) unexpanded JHP, that act the same as FMJ, but often with slightly shallower penetration and sometimes with slightly more hemorrhage around the wound track. Usually cheap ones or crushed by passing through a barrier like a car door (keep in mind the demographic); and 3) expanded JHP. These are the ones that most often don't make it to the hospital, per capita. I've seen these get stuck in a thigh or the abdomen, but after passing through the other side. They often don't embed on the other side of a body cavity. But they do cause organ lacerations and larger areas of hemorrhage more often than others.
Enough to matter at the time of crisis? I can't say. Won't hurt on the delivering end, though. And once you reach the body cavity, you don't need to go further. Back muscles don't matter.

My takeaway from it all: Find something that functions 100% in your gun. Then something that expands reliably is a huge bonus on top of that. I have a very small list of rounds I'll buy without researching further first.
Don't get too hung up on the FBI minimums. You're not shooting at determined assassins. 11" penetration with reliable expansion is fine IMO, and better than 18" without. That will reach all the vitals with slightly more trauma. Trauma to fat doesn't stop anyone in their tracks and anything out there will reach the muscles that will, which aren't the target.
Three or four 9mm is better than one .357 or 10mm. I don't care about 'one-shot stop'. If you're in that situation, you don't want a single shot of overwhelming power. .44 might do it in one but statistically, multiple controllable rounds into vitals is the best way to make someone stop doing what they're doing.
 
Different bullets for different tasks and or cartridges.
When I started carrying a concealed handgun, I went down the 38 special, 9mm, 45acp, & 380 path and back and forth.
38 = 125 & 158 xtp
9mm = 115 XTP
45acp = 230 HP'S
380acp = 90 & 100 HP'S

I have shifted to Critical Defense 110 FTX in the 38 special. Critical Duty 135 FTX in the 9mm. 45acp has been Underwood 230 +p hollow points. The 380acp is only carried when my attire requires a little gun. It is feed Federal Punch, but I'm leaning towards just using 100 FMJ'S as hollow point reliability in 380 is marginal.
 
My day job is an autopsy technician. This has colored my opinion a bit.
Keep in mind I've had only a statistic pool of three or four, but those 'fluid dynamic' bullets I've pulled out of people did seem to have some affect better than FMJ, but not as good as a HP that expanded. A slight ring of hemorrhaged liver here, a tear in a kidney there. With JHP, that liver would have had laceration only slightly smaller than the 'hemorrhage ring'--for lack of a better term or pathological education--and likely would have torn that kidney as well.
Remember that nothing reacts just like the tests; gel is an 'average' of components, and is useful for testing but in large part because it's a consistent medium.
I haven't seen enough cases involving these to 100% make a call one way or the other. They just aren't common enough, and at least half of my small experience pool has been self-inflicted in a manner that the placement makes the expansion irrelevant.

What the work has taught me is that function is 100% important. Terminal effects depend 90% on placement. There's not much in a human body that isn't important, but it affects the speed at which someone stops doing what they were doing.

Discounting self-inflicted injuries (which are often the most expensive or available rounds), our most common recovered bullets are, in order of totals 1) FMJ. Many go unrecovered from the victim, many leave small holes and minimal laceration bordering them; 2) unexpanded JHP, that act the same as FMJ, but often with slightly shallower penetration and sometimes with slightly more hemorrhage around the wound track. Usually cheap ones or crushed by passing through a barrier like a car door (keep in mind the demographic); and 3) expanded JHP. These are the ones that most often don't make it to the hospital, per capita. I've seen these get stuck in a thigh or the abdomen, but after passing through the other side. They often don't embed on the other side of a body cavity. But they do cause organ lacerations and larger areas of hemorrhage more often than others.
Enough to matter at the time of crisis? I can't say. Won't hurt on the delivering end, though. And once you reach the body cavity, you don't need to go further. Back muscles don't matter.

My takeaway from it all: Find something that functions 100% in your gun. Then something that expands reliably is a huge bonus on top of that. I have a very small list of rounds I'll buy without researching further first.
Don't get too hung up on the FBI minimums. You're not shooting at determined assassins. 11" penetration with reliable expansion is fine IMO, and better than 18" without. That will reach all the vitals with slightly more trauma. Trauma to fat doesn't stop anyone in their tracks and anything out there will reach the muscles that will, which aren't the target.
Three or four 9mm is better than one .357 or 10mm. I don't care about 'one-shot stop'. If you're in that situation, you don't want a single shot of overwhelming power. .44 might do it in one but statistically, multiple controllable rounds into vitals is the best way to make someone stop doing what they're doing.

Outstanding post.

My $0.02: I'd like to see the "fluid dynamics" bullets tested extensively on game like feral swine and deer, to get a better idea of how they perform on live mammals.
 
The new “fluid dynamics” type bullets promise a lot. All the wounding potential of an expanding hollowpoint, or maybe even more, with the penetration of an FMJ, and maybe the feeding reliability of an FMJ too.

Personally I’ll wait until I see real world proof of these claims...

Thank you for thinking. The military would adopt these designs if they worked in Fort Bragg's Goat Lab, as it would be a way circumvent the Hague convention which prevents more effective damage, particularly from handgun rounds. Now fragmenting rounds can do the most tissue damage, but only in rifle rounds that fragment can they still penetrates an arm and enter the torso - purposefully fragmenting handgun-rounds would end up fragmenting in the arm and only maybe the small base of the bullet would enter the torso, with much less mass/energy. This is why high speed rifle rounds are so devastating within their range of fragmentation velocity.

I have whole posts on other forums dedicated to how the screw driver and similiar projectiles are gimmicks that just take advantage of the low elastic-limit of ballistics gel.

Just to be super simple simple in explaining why screwdriver bullets don't work the same in tissue as gel:

1. If you bend ballistics-gel bricks in half, they tear in half.

2. If you to bend, or even try yourself to tear any raw animal flesh, be it steak, pork shoulder, cow/pig lungs, or even livers, NONE OF THESE ANIMAL TISSUES WILL TEAR BY BENDING like the super easily broken Ballistics Gel does. Even trying to tear them is difficult and almost all raw and blood filled tissues.


Ballistics gel is decent for modelling the depth of wound paths, but it is TERRIBLE for modeling wounds created via a "permanent stretch cavity".

If the screwdrivers were imparting the type of energy needed for permanent tears they would slow down - the fact that they travel the same depths as most FMJ, is and indication that they are not imparting enough energy to damage tissue in way they are alleged to. THUS, VIA THE THE LAW OF THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY, THEY WOULD RAPIDLY SLOW DOWN IF IMPARTING DAMAGE SIMILAR TO HOLLOWPOINTS. THEY DON'T HAVE ENERGY TO NOT SLOW DOWN RAPIDLY IF THEY WERE IMPARTING ADDITINAL FORCES (via the proposed redirection of the foward resistance/friction into perpendicular "jets" that cut tissue- that amount of redirection of force wouldslow the bullets rapidly just like normal HP resistance does). THIS
IS ONLY SLIGHTLY ABOVE BASIC PHYSICS.

...the Screwdriver bullets are taking advantage of that low elastic-limit of gel to create "wound paths" that are just stretches that beyond the limit of gelatin - these are not stretches that would tear animal/human tissue... at best they would maybe induce internal bruising/hematomas (but doubt that).

Note: An accurate shot woth the scew-driver byulets still work - just like accurate FMJ shots work. But I have shot FMJ and LeHigh Extreme side by side in the stinking bloody corpse of a dead a cow, and the wound paths were indistinguishable).
 
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Thank you for thinking. The military would adopt these designs if they worked in Fort Bragg's Goat Lab, as it would be a way circumvent the Hague convention which prevents more effective damage, particularly from handgun rounds. Now fragmenting rounds can do the most tissue damage, but only in rifle rounds that fragment can they still penetrates an arm and enter the torso - purposefully fragmenting handgun-rounds would end up fragmenting in the arm and only maybe the small base of the bullet would enter the torso, with much less mass/energy. This is why high speed rifle rounds are so devastating within their range of fragmentation velocity.

I have whole posts on other forums dedicated to how the screw driver and similiar projectiles are gimmicks that just take advantage of the low elastic-limit of ballistics gel.

Just to be super simple simple in explaining why screwdriver bullets don't work the same in tissue as gel:

1. If you bend ballistics-gel bricks in half, they tear in half.

2. If you to bend, or even try yourself to tear any raw animal flesh, be it steak, pork shoulder, cow/pig lungs, or even livers, NONE OF THESE ANIMAL TISSUES WILL TEAR BY BENDING like the super easily broken Ballistics Gel does. Even trying to tear them is difficult and almost all raw and blood filled tissues.


Ballistics gel is decent for modelling the depth of wound paths, but it is TERRIBLE for modeling wounds created via a "permanent stretch cavity".

If the screwdrivers were imparting the type of energy needed for permanent tears they would slow down - the fact that they travel the same depths as most FMJ, is and indication that they are not imparting enough energy to damage tissue in way they are alleged to. THUS, VIA THE THE LAW OF THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY, THEY WOULD RAPIDLY SLOW DOWN IF IMPARTING DAMAGE SIMILAR TO HOLLOWPOINTS. THEY DON'T HAVE ENERGY TO NOT SLOW DOWN RAPIDLY IF THEY WERE IMPARTING ADDITINAL FORCES (via the proposed redirection of the foward resistance/friction into perpendicular "jets" that cut tissue- that amount of redirection of force wouldslow the bullets rapidly just like normal HP resistance does). THIS
IS ONLY SLIGHTLY ABOVE BASIC PHYSICS.

...the Screwdriver bullets are taking advantage of that low elastic-limit of gel to create "wound paths" that are just stretches that beyond the limit of gelatin - these are not stretches that would tear animal/human tissue... at best they would maybe induce internal bruising/hematomas (but doubt that).

Note: An accurate shot woth the scew-driver byulets still work - just like accurate FMJ shots work. But I have shot FMJ and LeHigh Extreme side by side in the stinking bloody corpse of a dead a cow, and the wound paths were indistinguishable).
the fbi doesn't care about any of this. they require a bullet to penetrate 12 to 18 inches of their ballistic gel after penetrating various barriers. the lehigh xd bullet does this. the flutes slow the bullet to prevent over-penetration and the solid copper construction prevents deformation which allows the bullet to be barrier blind.

handgun bullets are not rifle bullets.

no bullet works the same in tissue as in gel.

I guess one could say that I disagree with your post,

murf
 
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