Why does there seem to be shotgun hate?

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Well said Phaedrus... with the caveat that someone who does know how to run a shotgun and has the right skills is a very dangerous close quarters opponent (just like someone that has the know how, training, and experience to operate an AR at close quarters..).
 
I watch Fox news and do not believe that 500 homes are invaded each year. That is utter nonsense. But I also see what is going on in the world and it is not good and getting worse every day. And shotgun technolgy has advanced in many ways if that is your thing.
Phaedrus/69 said:
A lot has changed since shotguns ruled the world of HD. As I mentioned in another thread I was born in the late 60's and to the extent that I grew up at all, it was in the 70's and 80's. As a kid I would pour lustfully over The Shooter's Bible and drool over the ARs. AR's were rare and exotic, and when was young pretty much only Colt (and maybe Armalite) sold them. An AR was rare and quite expensive- when I bought my Min-14 a Cold AR cost around $1500! For reference, as a high school kid I made something like $3.35/hour!

Also, the King of CQB back then was the MP5. All the high-speed, low-drag teams used them. The doctrine of the day was that battle rifles ruled the battlefield, subguns ruled the CQB space, cops carried wheelguns and you had an 870 behind the door of the bedroom.

Of course nowadays ARs are at commodity pricing the way flatscreen TVs are. Mini-14s and AKs are expensive.

And the AR platform has been tweaked and refined over the 60 years it's been around! Subguns have mostly fallen out of favor and been replaced by SBRs. Suppressors are more common. I never saw a cop with a rifle or carbine in a squad car back in the day but now they're common.

So yeah, I don't think shotguns are "hated" but the rise of the AR has cut deeply into the domain of the shotgun. The AR is much easier to shoot well, has lower recoil, high rates of fire, deep magazines and tons of options. They're more reliable for a relative nOOb than a pump shotgun IMO (I'm a fairly experienced shooter and I still occasionally short-stroke a pump shottie).

The rise of the choose-your-own-reality media is another issue. If you just look at the crime stats we live in perhaps the safest era in human history. Across the board violent crimes are much lower than in the 70's and 80's. Pockets of higher crime of course exist. But the media left and right has learned to sensational crime to sell ads. If you only watched Fox News you could be forgiven for thinking there are 500 home invasions every day. While the mythical "home invasion CREW" has penetrated the middle class psyche the opinion has arisen that the mostly likely threat will be five armed invaders busting down your door at night. The reality based on actual facts indicate that if you own an AR but don't own a fire extinguisher, you're an idiot. But this siege mentality and fear of the "other" has grown very strong in modern society.

So in a nutshell, the shotgun has lost ground due to competition from newer technology that offers certain advantages over it. An atmosphere of FUD has arisen where elites control the population through fear of the other. And the general decline of places to shoot and of hunting and shooting sports means that less people grew up hunting and running a pump shotgun.

JMOHO.
Click to expand...


I watch Fox news and do not believe that 500 homes are invaded each day nor the many fiends, family club members and hunting folks that I have known all my life. . That is utter nonsense. But I also see what is going on in the world and it is not good and getting worse every day. We live in the safest era? Lol, that has changed tremendously in just the last month. I have never seen this type of carnage ever in America since 911.It has become insane to say the least.And I do not need the news to know this. I have witnessed it with my own eyes, just like millions of other Americans.
You might hate shotguns, But NO they are not hated where I live. Quite the contrary. For Gosh sake, I would have to give up hunting all together. Also Shotguns are part of our Heritage. And because myself and others use a Shotgun for Home Invasion does not mean we are stupid to buy into any CNN propaganda nonsense. Will there be more home invasions, torched business's, homes, invasions by 5 or more in the future? Well there could very well be just that. NO the shotgun has not lost ground where I live or the many folks I have known for many years.

I will agree with you that the general decline in Hunting has less people using a shotgun or any weapon. Not just because of diminished hunting land. More Deer in my area than in any time in History for example. Permits are shrinking all the time. A new generation of snowflakes are emerging. And it is disgusting to have the AR's taking over the indoor pistol ranges on a Sat. Am. I would bet 80% have never even taken one to a Outdoor range in their life. In other areas of the Country, Yes, the AR is a viable HD, Hunting weapon etc. But the South is NOT the rest of the Country.
I have been using a pump shotgun all my life and have not short stroked one since I was a kid. Don't like a pump then get a semi. Some fantastic one's made.
 
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I don’t know. I grew up in the 1960’s, at a time when we had race riots here in Cleveland that my friends dad, a Cleveland cop, described as “open war”. A Frozen Chosin vet, he knew what he was talking about. The choice for cops, and many civilians was shotgun, M1 Carbine, or Winchester 94 30-30.
In fact, you could walk in to Sears, Kmart, or any other variety store, and buy any of those three. Btw, they weren’t locked in a case...they were on a rack down an aisle, unlocked, with ammo stacked next to them. Of course, cash and carry, no 4477.
So plenty of CQB light semi carbines, and plenty of vets who knew how to shoot them. Still, the shotgun ruled, based on its real life performance.
Only today, do people think a lightweight, low recoil semiauto is somehow “new”, relegating the shotgun to obsolescence. Plenty of American fighting men have preferred it. Even in desert storm. On the Mossberg website, there is an article by a veteran about his Iraq experience, where he wielded a 590 against ak armed opponents.
Honestly, the correct answer is both carbine and shotgun. That Cleveland cop I mentioned always kept the GI Carbine he bought from the government along with his riot gun on a rack in his house, both loaded.
 
Home invasions... the one stat I’d like to see (and never will...) is what percentage of home invasions involve folks doing something illegal themselves...

Years ago down here in south Florida lots of bad things rarely involved innocent victims... I went to my share of “Miami Specials”. where no one brought dope but both sides were armed and intended to rip off the other... Fun times if you arrived after the party. Very bad scene if you were there when it went down.
 
lemaymiami said:
Home invasions... the one stat I’d like to see (and never will...) is what percentage of home invasions involve folks doing something illegal themselves...
Click to expand...

If by that you mean how many home invasions are criminals hitting the homes of other criminals, that would be interesting. My impression is that it's pretty high. There was a guy I worked with that suffered a home invasion, three guys kicked in his door and roughed him up pretty good. But digging deeper into his story he admit that he knew them a little bit and that they likely knew he had an ounce of weed in the house. He wasn't a dealer, he just smoked a lot of weed. But a good amount of crime is one crook attacking another crook.

amd6547 said:
I don’t know. I grew up in the 1960’s, at a time when we had race riots here in Cleveland that my friends dad, a Cleveland cop, described as “open war”. A Frozen Chosin vet, he knew what he was talking about. The choice for cops, and many civilians was shotgun, M1 Carbine, or Winchester 94 30-30.
In fact, you could walk in to Sears, Kmart, or any other variety store, and buy any of those three. Btw, they weren’t locked in a case...they were on a rack down an aisle, unlocked, with ammo stacked next to them. Of course, cash and carry, no 4477.
Click to expand...

Maybe that's a regional thing. I doubt the M1 Carbine was ever as ubiquitous with LE as the AR/M4 is today. If it was I expect I'd have seen at least one in police hands in my area in my lifetime but I haven't. There was a mish-mash of light, short rifles that we would now consider carbines but that's kind of the point- there wasn't one single one that dominated the rest. Outside of The Rifleman I haven't seen a lot of leverguns in police hands. There wasn't a huge amount of standardization of carbines. I did see a few Mini-14s here and there.

Much of what LE has is trickle down from the military, and of course today the govt supplies PDs with military hardware. I think the widespread use of the AR for LE is trickle down from its use with the military.

For whatever reason, the AR has come a long ways towards supplanting the shotgun for HD and police use. The reasons might be open to debate but I doubt one could really argue that it hasn't happened.
 
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For me, a shotgun is just more intuitive to operate. I have an AR, but i have not run it through its paces like I have a pump action.

I see the idea of limiting OP into a family member's bedroom as a good idea and a plus for the AR, but i am just clumsy with mine. Charging the handle and getting the weapon up isn't as fast nor does it feel as "sure" as grabbing my shotgun, letting my finger brush the release and racking a shell in.

My plan for home invasion is barricade and limit additional access. I wont be doing anything before making it down the hall to cover my daughter's room. From that point, there is one way up or down. All the crap worth taking is downstairs. All the priceless things (my family) is on the second floor. Stay put, call the cops, don't worry about clearing the downstairs. That's what insurance is for. I feel more sure of my skills to point a heavy 12 gauge loaded with 8 rounds of 00 over my AR to cover that chokepoint.

For me, full size shotgun fills the HD role better.

The protests have not bothered me one bit. Every single one of them in my area has been peaceful and respectful in the surrounding larger towns. Rioting and looting aren't going to happen in the area where I live. I live in a small blended suburb that feeds into a larger city as a sort of catch-all where professionals from the working class and upper class of all races, creeds, sexual orientations, and identities live peacefully. We have 2 or 3 beat cops who mostly make revenue stops. Anyway, that part of whats going on in the world hasn't bothered me.

I was way, way, WAY more nervous about the shortages in the early days of the pandemic. I feel my community really hangs together when it comes to supporting injustices, but when people panic all bets are off. I stocked up on more buckshot and planned less for a break in at night and more for a bug out if things went sideways in the bigger city. I started bringing my shotgun in my trunk with me to work along with my edc. I did the same thing on a recent trip to Florida last week. Not because of the protests, but because that state is a hotspot for COVID and if people started to panic I wanted to be prepared.

Thinking back on it, my AR probably makes more sense to stash in my trunk or in the backseat of my truck. It never entered my mind to take it over the shotgun. The shotgun is just what I gravitate towards when I worry about a bad situation.
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
If by that you mean how many home invasions are criminals hitting the homes of other criminals, that would be interesting. My impression is that it's pretty high. There was a guy I worked with that suffered a home invasion, three guys kicked in his door and roughed him up pretty good. But digging deeper into his story he admit that he knew them a little bit and that they likely knew he had an ounce of weed in the house. He wasn't a dealer, he just smoked a lot of weed. But a good amount of crime is one crook attacking another crook.



Maybe that's a regional thing. I doubt the M1 Carbine was ever as ubiquitous with LE as the AR/M4 is today. If it was I expect I'd have seen at least one in police hands in my area in my lifetime but I haven't. There was a mish-mash of light, short rifles that we would now consider carbines but that's kind of the point- there wasn't one single one that dominated the rest. Outside of The Rifleman I haven't seen a lot of leverguns in police hands. There wasn't a huge amount of standardization of carbines. I did see a few Mini-14s here and there.

Much of what LE has is trickle down from the military, and of course today the govt supplies PDs with military hardware. I think the widespread use of the AR for LE is trickle down from its use with the military.

For whatever reason, the AR has come a long ways towards supplanting the shotgun for HD and police use. The reasons might be open to debate but I doubt one could really argue that it hasn't happened.
Click to expand...

Detroit PD, for one big example, issued a lot of M1 Carbines. Those were sold off a few years ago, and can be found with the DPD stamp in the wood. New York also issued them, and they were the preferred longarm of the stakeout unit. They were all over, because for a while, the government was selling them direct to officers at low cost. As for the Win 94, I’ve seen photos from Cleveland’s riots with cops aiming Model 94’s up at a window where a sniper was shooting at them. In one photo I recall, one of the cops had a scoped Model 70.
 
I blame rock and roll. Specifically GAS. Gear Acquisition Syndrome. You buy all sorts of fancy things to make you a better player and make you play faster and give you the skills!
But then some guy with a beat up Squier Stratocaster and a cheap old Peavey amp shows you that the old timers maybe knew what they were doing. You don't just pass up decades of development and testing and trial by fire with fancy gizmos.
That's why the shotgun just won't go away. That's why, despite all the cool ammo in autoloaders, the old .38 Special still gets the job done. They work. They still do the job and they still do it well. Imaginary scenarios where an AR15 is the pinnacle of firearms development make the shotgun seem antiquated. But then the old Peavey that stinks like a dozen dive bars shows up and shows that loud is loud and when its comes to doing it for real, the old ways still throw down and get it done.
 
As someone who spent their whole career in the Electronic alarm business, I would agree with Fox News. I think the term Invasion should be Intrusion or Burglary. And if so ,500 a day would be a gross understatement. Come down South where I live and you will not hear the words "I hate shotguns" from the hardcore hunters and families that have grown up here. On the contrary. You will find a dedicated love for them. And I love Buckshot! And I love shooting it.
 
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Shotguns are very viable weapons for home defense.I just think its difficult for the untrained person to acquire the dexterity to operate a pump action.Then there is the recoil and lower round count.Although if someone takes the time to see how the shotgun works they can definitely get good at it.
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
A lot has changed since shotguns ruled the world of HD. As I mentioned in another thread I was born in the late 60's and to the extent that I grew up at all, it was in the 70's and 80's. As a kid I would pour lustfully over The Shooter's Bible and drool over the ARs. AR's were rare and exotic, and when was young pretty much only Colt (and maybe Armalite) sold them. An AR was rare and quite expensive- when I bought my Min-14 a Cold AR cost around $1500! For reference, as a high school kid I made something like $3.35/hour!

Also, the King of CQB back then was the MP5. All the high-speed, low-drag teams used them. The doctrine of the day was that battle rifles ruled the battlefield, subguns ruled the CQB space, cops carried wheelguns and you had an 870 behind the door of the bedroom.

Of course nowadays ARs are at commodity pricing the way flatscreen TVs are. Mini-14s and AKs are expensive.

And the AR platform has been tweaked and refined over the 60 years it's been around! Subguns have mostly fallen out of favor and been replaced by SBRs. Suppressors are more common. I never saw a cop with a rifle or carbine in a squad car back in the day but now they're common.

So yeah, I don't think shotguns are "hated" but the rise of the AR has cut deeply into the domain of the shotgun. The AR is much easier to shoot well, has lower recoil, high rates of fire, deep magazines and tons of options. They're more reliable for a relative nOOb than a pump shotgun IMO (I'm a fairly experienced shooter and I still occasionally short-stroke a pump shottie).

The rise of the choose-your-own-reality media is another issue. If you just look at the crime stats we live in perhaps the safest era in human history. Across the board violent crimes are much lower than in the 70's and 80's. Pockets of higher crime of course exist. But the media left and right has learned to sensational crime to sell ads. If you only watched Fox News you could be forgiven for thinking there are 500 home invasions every day. While the mythical "home invasion CREW" has penetrated the middle class psyche the opinion has arisen that the mostly likely threat will be five armed invaders busting down your door at night. The reality based on actual facts indicate that if you own an AR but don't own a fire extinguisher, you're an idiot. But this siege mentality and fear of the "other" has grown very strong in modern society.

So in a nutshell, the shotgun has lost ground due to competition from newer technology that offers certain advantages over it. An atmosphere of FUD has arisen where elites control the population through fear of the other. And the general decline of places to shoot and of hunting and shooting sports means that less people grew up hunting and running a pump shotgun.

JMOHO.
Click to expand...
Apparently, Phaedrus and I are in the same age bracket. I was also born in the late 60s, graduated high school in the 1980s. Shotguns were the kings of HD back then. There have been significant shifts in prices, 'doctrine' (for lack of a better word), ammo, and all sorts of other things that have led to a relative decline in popularity of the shotgun as an HD weapon. That said, I don't think anyone is eager to say that a shotgun is inadequate for HD. I prefer a handgun for HD for a variety of reasons, but I certainly would not feel undergunned with the "Choate Special" 870 that sat at my bedside for several years. Unless I get a real Home Invasion Crew, it carries enough ammo of sufficient load to do the trick. And I think I remember how to run it.
:evil:
 
If I could find a Beretta 1301 (and if it was $900 or less) then the shotgun might move to the head of the line for HD for me. Or if I had the time and 500 rounds of field loads to do more work with my 500. My late father though kept that same "Choate Special" 870 and woe be to the invader that tried out door back when he was alive! Dad was a wiz with a pump gun til he lost his right eye in an accident in the late 70's. Still while he had trouble wingshooting with no depth perception the muscle memory persisted, and he could work that pump gun as fast as most guys could shoot an 1100.
 
Love shotguns, actually all I own is shotguns because I love them so much. A lot of people truly don’t know much about shotguns really. They imagine some old guy with an old shotgun shooting birds. But If only they’d understand that shotguns can vary so much not only with the different loads available but also all the different actions and setups you can get a shotgun configured in. I’m not sure how much they have researched about shotguns vs a 223 AR but personally I’d be a lot more confident with a shotgun with some buckshot in it vs an AR loaded with 223. But then again that is me personally
 
I think I said early on I took pro training with handguns, carbines and shotguns. I ran them in classes and matches. All work for me but if I pick up a long gun, the AR would be first. Except if the local bear wants to get in:)
 
While my HD shotgun is still in the corner of the closet, a new 9mm PCC is now the back up to the 9mm handgun on the nightstand.
 
Shotgun hate?? No such thing. I don't think there is anything I would fear more the a 12ga loaded with buckshot. It speaks, It speaks loud. And it means what it says.
 
for most of my time, the shotgun was the go-to. For most of my time that shotgun was the 870. Then, the 870 stopped being a reliable shotgun. Given that every new 870 coming from the factory I have seen for the last 15 years has been problematic, and everyone I know says the same thing, I don't think its an internet rumor. Bright side: 870's are easy to fix. I have fixed a few. Cheap, quick, makes you wonder why the factory couldn't.

Then came the Chinese clones.... and those I have seen are junk. As this was happening, the Mossburg Maverick doubled in price, due to the rapid post 911, and 09 financial crisis/quantitative easing related inflation.

As this was going on, Iraq/Afghanistan vets were making a big splash in gun marketing.

Then, the effects of the gun culture gap from the '94 AWB was resulting in most new shooters coming in because of the video game world.

Back to the 870 issue. Most people don't fix broken guns. Even under warranty. They shot them, they jam, they put them back in the closet, then years later take them out with their gamer friends, it jams... everyone is left with a bad impression. Same reasons 1911's jam, same reason AKMs are inaccurate. While many 1911's jam, many AK's miss, and many 870's lock up, there's nothing inherent to the design dictating it must be that way. People just settle for low quality, and the manufacturer builds to suit that.

The shotgun enthusiasm also was a product of its versatility. When firearms were relatively expensive, and most discretionary income was very low, shotguns made the most sense. Given that the CNC/cast/platic gun movement was really taking off around the time the AWB expired, the shotgun was no longer the cheapest, or the only available option.

Then you have urban sprawl. Most people are saying that buckshot is more liability than 5.56.
On top of that, the internet has finally gotten the point across that shotguns DO need to be aimed, and #8 is not a good defense load.
People are finally realizing that missing is possible with a shotgun, and 4 shots can be a problem. Realistically, most people are using factory 5 shot tubes, empty chamber.

Shotguns still offer the noise advantage, and the power advantage.
 
mjsdwash said:
For most of my time that shotgun was the 870. Then, the 870 stopped being a reliable shotgun. Given that every new 870 coming from the factory I have seen for the last 15 years has been problematic, and everyone I know says the same thing, I don't think its an internet rumor. Bright side: 870's are easy to fix. I have fixed a few. Cheap, quick, makes you wonder why the factory couldn't.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are talking about the 870 Express and not the 870 Wingmaster; night and day between the two.
 
lemaymiami said:
Well said Phaedrus... with the caveat that someone who does know how to run a shotgun and has the right skills is a very dangerous close quarters opponent (just like someone that has the know how, training, and experience to operate an AR at close quarters..).
Click to expand...

I guess I'm double trouble.
 
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