Blackhawk - New/Old, Strong/Less

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GJeffB

GJeffB

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I'm going to try to use precise language, because I've become confused. A short time ago I started a primer thread here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/primers-flogging-the-dead-horse-maybe.875347/ I don't consider myself a novice loader, but clearly not expert.

In that thread I referenced my new manufacture Blackhawk 45 Colt. Emphasis on new manufacture. I described it as a NM Blackhawk, and intended that as New Model. The thread answered my question, and "evolved" into the relative strength of NM, OM, grip frame size and "Ruger-only" loads. [Let me also emphasize my goal is *not* to test my Blackhawk's outer limits]. I THINK I understood some responses that a NM (i.e. "New Model") is not capable of handling Ruger-only loads. My confusion is whether referring to a NM/New Model is the same as referring to a new manufacture and frame size (leaving alone cylinder size and wall thickness for the moment). After reading many of the replies, I searched and got a lot of information about gun damage with long term use of Ruger-only loads. Again, I am not thinking a constant diet of near maximum pressure ammunition.

Then I arrived at https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings. Linebaugh is pretty well respected as a big bore limit pusher and knowledgeable. I got the understanding that a NM (new manufacture?) is easily within the realm of Ruger-only loads, gun wear notwithstanding.

This was a verbose thread starter. Is there a short version answer to the questions:
1. Does NM=New Model=new manufacture?
2. Is a new manufacture/NM safe with Ruger-only or close (NOT over) loads for casual use?

-jb, generating new questions from every answer
 
NM stands for new model. New model means it has a transfer bar mechanism. This came about after a law suit in the early 70's where a guy got shot with the "old model". The old model (early 50's to early 70's models) did not have a transfer bar safety and functioned exactly like a Colt Single Action. The firing pin was directly on the hammer, so if a cartridge was under the firing pin, and the hammer was struck from the rear hard enough, the gun could potentially fire.

New or old model, they have always been built like tanks. Hence the "Ruger only" load data.
 
That's a good start Mr. You see, I've always understood the difference between the transfer bar system. Like it or love it, it works when learned. My questions were generated by:
>>No, not quite. The NM Blackhawk is built on the smaller (newer) frame, not the old Blackhawk/Vaquero frame. I get mixed up on the models now and then... someone correct me if I'm wrong...<< and
>>You are correct. The old large frame model was made for the 44 MAG and modified to 45 Colt. I have a pair I use for CAS.Those are built like a proverbial tank. The newer ones are lighter and look more like an original colt proportionally to me. The thinner backstrap is not something I will pay for.<< and
>>I have two of the new model , lighter weight blackhawks. You are quite right as far as I'm concerned.<<
Attributions unnecessary.

Re: frame size, my NM is apparently the XR3-RED frame, being the larger of the frames as I understood. Just trying to be sure of my nomenclature.

-jb, loading soft, dinosaur loads in the future
 
All Blackhawks made since 1973 are “New Models” with the transfer bar system. All new model 45 Colt Blackhawks, except for the smaller framed “Flattop” Models, are considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads.

All Vaqueros are "New Models" in the sense that they have the transfer bar system. Original Vaqueros (marked “Vaquero”) chambered in 45 Colt are also considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads. Vaqueros chambered in 45 Colt marked “New Vaquero” are built on the smaller frame and not considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads.

There could be some small niche or special edition models that are exceptions to the above, but I'm unaware of them.

Edit: XR3-RED refers to the grip frame, not the main frame surrounding the cylinder and holding the barrel. So it has nothing to do with suitability of a Blackhawk or Vaquero with regard to "Ruger Only" loads.

Edit 2: I believe the words of Linebaugh you referenced were originally written before any smaller framed 45 Colt "New Model" Blackhawks or Vaqueros existed.
 
Last edited:
Thanks BBarn,
All new model 45 Colt Blackhawks, except for the smaller framed “Flattop” Models, are considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads.]
Click to expand...
As I thought.
Vaqueros chambered in 45 Colt marked “New Vaquero” are built on the smaller frame and not considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads.
Click to expand...
Ditto
XR3-RED refers to the grip frame, not the main frame
Click to expand...
Agreed. It was referenced in the reply as the "thinner grip frame" ...
words of Linebaugh you referenced were originally written before any smaller framed 45 Colt "New Model" Blackhawks or Vaqueros existed.
Click to expand...
Again correct, but the page notes updated copyrights 2017 and 2020, so I have to believe it's reviewed. Regardless, I appreciate the cite.

I won't put words in anybody's mouth, but I'm comfortable with my NM BH using Ruger only. Thanks again.

-jb
 
There are large frame New Models and medium frame New Models. Both frame sizes have been chambered in 45 Colt. Only large frame New Models are suitable for "Ruger Only" loads.
 
RKRCPA, how to tell the difference, please? Manufacture date, serial number ... ? Sounds like a liability nightmare for Ruger :(

-jb, [smh suddenly]
 
Its not a liability issue for Ruger as they are not telling someone to put hot loads in their revolvers. Both the large and medium are being made so you need to go by the model more than date. Serial # may help but knowing what model you have I think is the best option.
 
The Catalog Number on the original plastic box label can also help. The medium frame models (Flat Tops and New Vaqueros) will have "NV" among the first five characters of the Catalog Number.
 
GJeffB said:
RKRCPA, how to tell the difference, please? Manufacture date, serial number ... ? Sounds like a liability nightmare for Ruger :(

-jb, [smh suddenly]
Click to expand...
I believe that the mid-frame Blackhawks have serial numbers with three digit prefix's.
 
BBarn said:
All Vaqueros are "New Models" in the sense that they have the transfer bar system. Original Vaqueros (marked “Vaquero”) chambered in 45 Colt are also considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads. Vaqueros chambered in 45 Colt marked “New Vaquero” are built on the smaller frame and not considered suitable for “Ruger Only” loads.
Click to expand...

That's correct. I have an 'old' Vaquero (marked just 'Vaquero') in .45 Colt, it is built on the larger Blackhawk-type frame... it can handle 'Ruger-only' loads.

Here's where the confusion comes... some years ago, because the Cowboy shooters wanted something more realistic, or Ruger wanted to compete directly against the imported replica guns, they came out with the slightly downsized frame. They are closer in size to the Colt SAA, but the new frames are not as strong as the older Blackhawk frames. I had a .44SCP Flattop for a while, it was definitely NOT the same pistol as my Vaquero.

If you go directly to the source... Ruger... and look at the current catalog, the have NM Blackhawks, and NM Super Blackhawks. The NM Blackhawks come chambered up to .41MAG and .45 Colt... but not .44MAG, you have to now go to the Super Blackhawk to get one in .44MAG. You will not find 'new' Vaqueros in .44MAG any longer, because they are built on the smaller frame, same with the Bisley.

What does this mean? All it means is if you stick with published data, you will be fine. If you want to hot-rod a Ruger, with published Ruger-only loads, you better make sure it's an older, large-frame model.
 
5719_3_.jpg

Here is a "New Vaquero" in 44mag. This is built on the large frame. My understanding is that in Ruger parlance a Vaquero is a "New Vaquero" if it is a previously issued Vaquero caliber that is reissued with the reverse indexing pawl.

I know, confusing as hell.
 
"Ruger Only" loads were developed for certain Rugers chambered in 45 Colt. Discussing other chamberings with reference to "Ruger Only" loads just adds confusion since the issue is only revelant with regard to Rugers chambered in 45 Colt.
 
BBarn said:
"Ruger Only" loads were developed for certain Rugers chambered in 45 Colt. Discussing other chamberings with reference to "Ruger Only" loads just adds confusion since the issue is only revelant with regard to Rugers chambered in 45 Colt.
Click to expand...

Agreed. That is why the two-digit vs three-digit scheme I referenced earlier seems most appropriate.
 
BBarn said:
"Ruger Only" loads were developed for certain Rugers chambered in 45 Colt. Discussing other chamberings with reference to "Ruger Only" loads just adds confusion since the issue is only revelant with regard to Rugers chambered in 45 Colt.
Click to expand...

'Ruger Only' data is also intended for other large-frame revolvers, the TC Contender, and modern lever-actions like the Marlin 1894... not just Rugers. It amounts to, essentially, a .45 Colt Magnum (my term.) If you consider the pressures reached are likely very close to .44MAG levels, you can see why you wouldn't want to shoot them in a smaller-framed revolver.

I understand why people want to get a little extra oomph out of the .45 Colt, I know, I've done it with my Vaquero, but I've never loaded anything approaching the Ruger-only loads.
 
RKRCPA said:
Agreed. That is why the two-digit vs three-digit scheme I referenced earlier seems most appropriate.
Click to expand...

The serial number prefix (two digits for large frame, three digits for medium frame) is a good indicator. The only exception is a pretty rare bird and it’s not in .45 Colt so I won’t bother with it.

It’s the cylinder frame we are talking about, not the grip frame.

The difference is pretty obvious when you pick up the revolver but it may be difficult to find examples of both for comparison.

I have New Vaqueros in .357. There is plenty of steel between the chambers. Pretty close to the size of the cylinder in a S&W 686. Also have a New Model Flattop in .44 Special. I’m confident it will handle SAAMI spec ammo or the equivalent handload, which is fine for me.
 
New Model 45 Colt with 2 digit prefix = large frame and OK for 'Ruger only' loads?

Even with stag grips? :)
 
Crunchy Frog said:
The serial number prefix (two digits for large frame, three digits for medium frame) is a good indicator. The only exception is a pretty rare bird and it’s not in .45 Colt so I won’t bother with it.
Click to expand...

Dang, which one is that? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
here is a list of cylinder diameters for various ruger single action revolvers:

0406200853.jpg

the 1.730" diameter cylinder is the only one suited for "ruger only" loads.

luck,

murf
 
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