.45colt or .45 LC?

Status
Not open for further replies.
My initial post was about a conversation with a fellow who thought .45 long colt was a different cartridge than the .45 colt. They are one and the same. I prefer to call it .45 colt. No argument if you want to call it long colt. Just a topic for conversation in the middle of a cold spell.
 
I'm always baffled at the religious argument regarding .45 Long Colt vs. .45 Colt.

We use the terms 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm and 9mm NATO mostly interchangeably, and nobody has a coronary about it. We all know what's being referred to and life goes happily along. On the other hand, in most gun forums, anyone who dares utter the term .45 Long Colt instantly encounters the ".45 Colt Reeducation Experience".

If we're going to be truly sticklers for cartridge naming accuracy, then everyone referring to ".38 Special" is in fact incorrect. Per Roy Jinks, S&W Historian, the proper and complete name is ".38 S&W Special". Let's face it, most popular cartridges are known by more than one name. Who blows a gasket over .45 Auto vs .45 ACP? Or maybe .44 Magnum vs .44 Remington Magnum?


Like 45 Schofield instead of 45 Smith & Wesson?


Kevin
 
I'm always baffled at the religious argument regarding .45 Long Colt vs. .45 Colt.

We use the terms 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm and 9mm NATO mostly interchangeably, and nobody has a coronary about it. We all know what's being referred to and life goes happily along. On the other hand, in most gun forums, anyone who dares utter the term .45 Long Colt instantly encounters the ".45 Colt Reeducation Experience".

If we're going to be truly sticklers for cartridge naming accuracy, then everyone referring to ".38 Special" is in fact incorrect. Per Roy Jinks, S&W Historian, the proper and complete name is ".38 S&W Special". Let's face it, most popular cartridges are known by more than one name. Who blows a gasket over .45 Auto vs .45 ACP? Or maybe .44 Magnum vs .44 Remington Magnum?
——
Or .32 S&W Long vs .32 Colt New Police? ;)
 
Lever actions are sensitive to OAL, especially the 1860-66-73 family.
There are lifter modifications for .45 Cowboy Special in LC and .44 Russian in Magnum.

The 1892s can be. There are bullets with crimp groove located for long OAL of .38s in .357 guns.
 
I'm always baffled at the religious argument regarding .45 Long Colt vs. .45 Colt.

We use the terms 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm and 9mm NATO mostly interchangeably, and nobody has a coronary about it. We all know what's being referred to and life goes happily along. On the other hand, in most gun forums, anyone who dares utter the term .45 Long Colt instantly encounters the ".45 Colt Reeducation Experience".

If we're going to be truly sticklers for cartridge naming accuracy, then everyone referring to ".38 Special" is in fact incorrect. Per Roy Jinks, S&W Historian, the proper and complete name is ".38 S&W Special". Let's face it, most popular cartridges are known by more than one name. Who blows a gasket over .45 Auto vs .45 ACP? Or maybe .44 Magnum vs .44 Remington Magnum?

Well said. As I said earlier, I am mellowing in my old age and no longer get in knock down, drag out arguments when somebody says 45 Long Colt. Never thought about it with 9mm before, but you are of course correct.

Regarding 38 Special, S&W likes to call it 38 S&W Special just to remind everybody that they invented the cartridge.

pmypBq29j.jpg




The same with 44 Special.

poF5dlHvj.jpg




Now I am going to have to remember not to initiate the "32 S&W Reeducation Experience" every time I hear somebody say "32 S&W Short".




And let's not even talk about 32 Colt New Police and 32 S&W Long.

poGF4OyWj.jpg
 
Does this statement apply only to revolvers, and not to 1894 .45 Colt lever guns?

1894 Winchesters can be troublesome when chambered for 45 Colt. The 1894 was designed for much longer cartridges such as 30-30. The mechanism had to be modified to feed the much shorter 45 Colt cartridge. I used to know a guy in CAS that had a Model 1894 Winchester trapper model chambered for 45 Colt. He was always cursing the thing. Forget shorter cartridges such as 45 Schofield in a Winchester Model 1894.

The Model 1892 on the other hand was designed for shorter cartridges such as 44-40 and 38-40. But they are quite fussy about what cartridges they will feed. If one were modified to feed the 45 Schofield cartridge I suspect it would no longer feed 45 Colt very well. Yes, the 1892 chambered for 357 Magnum likes a certain minimum cartridge length to feed 38 Specials. I cannot recall what the length is right now. Yes, there is a specific bullet that is extra long developed to feed well in lightly loaded 38 Specials in a '92.

There is a Cowboy Gunsmith who developed a modification for the carrier of the Winchester Toggle Link rifles; the 1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester, and 1873 Winchester, so they would feed the 45 Cowboy Special. With the modified carrier in the rifle, it will feed the 45 Cowboy Special but will jam if a cowboy tries to run a 45 Colt through it. Hoo Boy now I'm in trouble. That cartridge has not even been mentioned yet in this thread. The 45 Cowboy Special is the same length and has the same powder capacity as 45 ACP, but it has the same rim configuration as the 45 Colt. It was developed because so many CAS shooters (not me) down load 45 Colt to ridiculous levels. The cavernous case of 45 Colt does not do well when loaded with three flakes of Whiz Bang.

The five cartridges in this photo, left to right are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.

poQZHysyj.jpg




Standard 45 ACP or 45 Auto Rim data can be used with the 45 Cowboy Special because the internal powder capacities are the same.
 
This is how it is opened. Easy enough to do with one hand while brushing the barrel against one's leg in order to open the revolver. But I clearly do not have the skill to do this and reload while riding a horse. But mounted riders in 1875 did.

Horses are intelligent animals and can be trained to do wonderful things. They can be trained to use leg and seat clues to do things at the direction of the rider so, control of the horse by the reins is not a necessity. Usually, with good cavalry units, once set on an attack, the horse knows what to do by itself while the rider is doing other fighting tasks.

So, training and practicing reloading a handgun would be part of a skill learning set of a cavalry unit in preparation for battle. It was smart to design a revolver that could be reloaded easily while on horseback.

Just like automobiles, most everyone can drive down the highway but not everyone can compete in NASCAR or Formula 1.The same with riding skills. My wife and daughter are good riders which got me into riding. Even as a novice, my mustang and I can do things that one cannot do on a rent-a-horse from a riding facility at a vacation destination. I have learned a real appreciation for what good cavalry riders and units accomplish.

Note, this is some what of a simplistic answer. Good trainers make it look easy to train a horse, but you really do have to know what you are doing. I learned alot training my mustang, we learned together with the help of many more experienced than the both of us. But we are still both novices in the horse world.

Apologizes for diverting the thread from the 45 Colt discussion.

Back to the subject of the thread...

I use terminology I think is correct, 45 Colt is the cartridge, there are many 45 caliber cartridges and so forth. It seems to be losing battle to try to correct folks. I grit my teeth and move on.
 
Last edited:
Sigh. I promised myself I was not going to chime in on this thread.

Schofield cartridge rims never had to be made smaller to fit into a Single Action Army.

Here is a photo of a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder with two original Benet primed, copper cased, folded rim cartridges Schofield rounds, along with four of my reloads in modern Starline brass.

Current rim diameter specification for 45 Schofield rims is .520. (vs .512 for 45 Colt). I have loaded oodles of 45 Schofield in modern Starline brass. Rim diameters tend to run .517 -.519. The rim diameters of the two original copper cased Schofield rounds are .517

View attachment 978428




As can be seen in this photo, everything fits nicely in the Colt cylinder.

View attachment 978429






Close, but not quite. Major Schofield modified a S&W American Model (Let's not forget, there were five distinct Top Break revolvers that S&W built on the large #3 frame.) His patented modification was to the latch to allow a mounted trooper to load and unload the revolver with one hand. The latching mechanism for the earlier American and Russian models pretty much takes two hands to open. Yes, I can do it in a pinch with one hand, but it is easier with one hand grasping the frame and shoving the latch up with my thumb and the other hand rotating the barrel down. Schofield's latch was a serpentine affair attached to the frame, rather than the barrel, like the other models. It was fairly simple for a mounted trooper to hold the revolver with one hand while operating the latch with his thumb, and brush the barrel against his leg to open it. I'm doing it sitting in a chair right now with a Schofield, but it is beyond me how a mounted trooper could control his horse with one hand on the reins, hold onto the revolver, and reload all at the same time, unless he had three hands. Personally I can't tell the front end of a horse from the rear end, so what do I know. As an aside, crafty old Daniel Wesson directed his engineers to find a way around Schofield's patent, but the Schofield model was only in production from 1875 until 1877 and they never found a way around Schofield's patent in that time. S&W had to pay a royalty to Schofield for all the revolvers they made using his patented latch.

This is a S&W New Model Number Three with the same style of barrel latch that S&W was using before Schofield patented his improvement.

View attachment 978430




This is how you operate the latch to open the revolver.

View attachment 978431




This is a Schofield Model. The serpentine shaped piece mounted to the frame near the hammer is the barrel latch.

View attachment 978432




This is how it is opened. Easy enough to do with one hand while brushing the barrel against one's leg in order to open the revolver. But I clearly do not have the skill to do this and reload while riding a horse. But mounted riders in 1875 did.

View attachment 978433




Anyway, in 1875 S&W did not want to be left out of potentially lucrative government contracts. Colt had already won contracts with the Army for the Single Action Army in 1873. At the time S&W was heavily involved making what eventually amounted to 150,000 Russian models, mostly for sale to Russia, Japan, and Turkey. The standard length cylinder that S&W had been using for all their large frame Top Break revolvers since 1869 was 1 7/16" long. This worked very well with the 44 S&W American and 44 Russian cartridges which are fairly short. However the 45 Colt cartridge was too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. S&W was not about to modify their tooling for a longer cartridge and frame that would accommodate the 45 Colt cartridge while they were so heavily involved producing a zillion Russian models. The government specified that revolvers purchased for the Army had to be 45 Caliber. So a compromise was struck where S&W would open up the bore slightly on the new revolvers from 44 to 45, but keep the short 1 7/16" cylinder. The Schofield model was the result, and the Schofield cartridge was developed specifically for it. Nothing to do with patents for the change to 45, just what the Army was specifying.




Regarding official nomenclature for the early 45 Colt and 45 Schofield revolvers, I am taking the liberty to post here information from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. I always like to turn to Kuhnhausen because in my experience he has the most relevant infomation.

"Colt’s Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873 (original long configuration)
Load Data: 250 grain min/255 grain max hollow base, lubricated bullet and 30 grains of FFg Black Powder. Copper cased and Benet system primed.

Commercial .45 Colt Black Powder Cartridge (with reloadable commercial case)
Load data: 250-255 grain hollow base, lubricated lead bullet, black powder load: 37-38 grains FFg Black Powder in a reloadable boxer primed case. 40 grains of FFg black powder in early folded/rolled head type cases.

Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875 (shorter M1873 ctg. revision)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max hollow based, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder. Copper cased and Benet system primed.

Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1882 and M1890 (reloadable version)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max. hollow base, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder.

Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1896 (Short M1890 ctg. revision)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max hollow base, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder."






Funny you should ask. I have a reprint of the ARMY REVOLVERS and GATLING GUNS rules for inspection,originally published by the National Armory in Springfield Mass in 1875.(The same year the Schofield model was accepted by the Army.) So you can see for yourself what the Army was calling the Schofield model in 1875.

View attachment 978434

View attachment 978435

View attachment 978436




Finally, regarding 45 Colt vs 45 Long Colt, it has been a long time since I bought any commercially loaded 45 Colt ammo. I do remember one time though when I asked for a box of 45 Colt, the guy behind the counter asked me if I meant 45 Long Colt. Clearly, he had never heard of the Schofield cartridge, he just wanted to make sure I did not want some of that stubby, short, 45 ACP ammo. I am a die hard believer that the proper name for the cartridge is 45 Colt, but I have mellowed a bit in my old age and no longer get into knock down, drag out arguments about it.

BOOM!
 
Well said. As I said earlier, I am mellowing in my old age and no longer get in knock down, drag out arguments when somebody says 45 Long Colt. Never thought about it with 9mm before, but you are of course correct.

Regarding 38 Special, S&W likes to call it 38 S&W Special just to remind everybody that they invented the cartridge.

View attachment 978587




The same with 44 Special.

View attachment 978588




Now I am going to have to remember not to initiate the "32 S&W Reeducation Experience" every time I hear somebody say "32 S&W Short".




And let's not even talk about 32 Colt New Police and 32 S&W Long.

View attachment 978589
——
From a counter-sales perspective it’s probably more polite and more nearly correct just to tell the customer, “Not a problem. We don’t carry ‘Short Colts’...”
 
OK, once we settle the hash of people who talk about 45 Long Colt, can we go after the people who use BOTH a decimal point AND the word caliber to describe a cartridge? Like .22 caliber, or .38 caliber? It drives me nuts. In reference to small arms, a "caliber" is 1/100 of an inch. So you can have .320 inch, which is how the British do it, or 32 caliber, but not ".32 caliber", because that would be .32 of 1/100 of an inch. Get a clue, people!

(With artillery it's all different. There, "caliber" is used to specify barrel length as a multiple of projectile diameter. A 5-inch 38-caliber gun has a barrel that is 38 times 5 inches long, or 190 inches. It does NOT fire a shell is 5.38 inches in diameter, a mistake I have seen published authors make.)

Once that is done, then it's on to the people who call one cent coins "pennies". How I long to use a .45 caliber Long Colt on them!

Good thing you put that disclaimer in there!

The retired Sailor in me was going to whip out the 16 inch/50 caliber Mark 7 main guns on the Iowa class battleships!
 
Last edited:
Just like automobiles, most everyone can drive down the highway but not everyone can compete in NASCAR or Formula 1.The same with riding skills. My wife and daughter are good riders which got me into riding. Even as a novice, my mustang and I can do things that one cannot do on a rent-a-horse from a riding facility at a vacation destination. I have learned a real appreciation for what good calvary riders and units accomplish.

As I said earlier, I barely can tell one end of a horse from the other. My total time on a horse in my entire life is probably only a few hours, and they were all Rent -a-Horses.

I do appreciate your comments though.

One question for you. As an inveterate watcher of Cowboy Movies and TV shows, going back to Cheyenne and Gunsmoke on TV, and of course every oat burner that has been made for the theaters since then, I have a question for you.

Every time a cowboy (in a movie or on TV) dismounts and heads into the saloon, all he does to keep his horse parked is wrap the reins around the hitching rail. I have never seen a movie cowboy take the time to actually tie the reins around the rail, all they ever seem to do is wrap the reins loosely around the rail once and head into the saloon. So my question is, are horses really that dumb? Does it never occur to them that if they back up a little bit the reins will come undone from the hitching rail and they will be free to leave? You are probably going to tell me that movie horses are very well trained and are taught to stay put.

Tom Hanks recently made a Western and he had some very interesting things to say about horses in one of his interviews. Haven't seen the movie yet, but I loved what he had to say about horses. You can google it if you are interested.
 
As I said earlier, I barely can tell one end of a horse from the other. My total time on a horse in my entire life is probably only a few hours, and they were all Rent -a-Horses.

I do appreciate your comments though.

One question for you. As an inveterate watcher of Cowboy Movies and TV shows, going back to Cheyenne and Gunsmoke on TV, and of course every oat burner that has been made for the theaters since then, I have a question for you.

Every time a cowboy (in a movie or on TV) dismounts and heads into the saloon, all he does to keep his horse parked is wrap the reins around the hitching rail. I have never seen a movie cowboy take the time to actually tie the reins around the rail, all they ever seem to do is wrap the reins loosely around the rail once and head into the saloon. So my question is, are horses really that dumb? Does it never occur to them that if they back up a little bit the reins will come undone from the hitching rail and they will be free to leave? You are probably going to tell me that movie horses are very well trained and are taught to stay put.

Tom Hanks recently made a Western and he had some very interesting things to say about horses in one of his interviews. Haven't seen the movie yet, but I loved what he had to say about horses. You can google it if you are interested.
Dumb? LOL!! Dumb like a pampered Prince/Princess! :)

A saddled and bridled horse on their own is open game for every predator that eats horse - which is a long list!
A horse that stays put gets brushed, fed an oat bucket, maybe some corn and wheat straw, hay to roll in and sleep on, a blanket, hoof cleaning... They're a real cowboy's best friend and closest companion, not just a mode of transport or a pet. I know some folks talk to their horse more often and more nicely than their spouse. :D
 
are horses really that dumb?
Actually they are that smart. A saddlehorse can be trained to "ground tie." It's a great skill that requires a patient and skillful horse. The animal is taught to stop and not wander away when one or both reins drop to the ground. As a result, it's not necessary to really knot up the reins on the hitching rail. Also, if something spooks the horse, you're probably better off if the reins just come untied, rather than having the horse break the bridle.

Now back to your regularly scheduled .45 [Long] Colt programming.

-jb, used to raise Quarter horses in a previous life
 
If someone wants to call the .45 Colt a “Long Colt” I usually will mention that the proper name is .45 Colt. I am sure that at some point in their firearms maturity they will come to realize proper terminologies. :p
 
Thanks for the information about horses. Like I said, I know next to nothing about them.

In the interview with Tom Hanks after he made the Western movie he talks about the horse he rode through the movie. He was assigned one very well trained movie horse. Every day before filming began he would go up to the horse and wrap his arms around his neck and tell him how much he liked him. Apparently they had great rapport. Hanks also mentioned the time years earlier when he met Jimmy Stewart. Stewart told him about the horse he had ridden in most of his Westerns, he rode the same horse in many movies. Stewart had a painting of the horse in his study that had been painted by Henry Fonda.
 
...There is a Cowboy Gunsmith who developed a modification for the carrier of the Winchester Toggle Link rifles; the 1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester, and 1873 Winchester, so they would feed the 45 Cowboy Special. With the modified carrier in the rifle, it will feed the 45 Cowboy Special but will jam if a cowboy tries to run a 45 Colt through it. Hoo Boy now I'm in trouble. That cartridge has not even been mentioned yet in this thread....

Thanks for that! Another example of why to ask seemingly dumb questions on THR. Entertaining, informative answers appear, which you'd never have imagined.
 
...as there is no such thing as a 45 short Colt.
But there WAS at one time!

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

"Those that voraciously disagree with the word ‘LONG’ in the phrase 45 Long Colt............don’t e-mail me.....my spiritual brother (for almost a lifetime), and dear friend, John Taffin, has been trying to change my position for decades....and John may be correct, as all of you may. But in this, I am unrepentant...why? Because among other reasons, I have a full box of 45 Short Colt ammo produced in 1883 and that got me to really investigate! Not Schofield...but “45 Short Colt” Ammunition.....(230 grain bullet/hollow base/28 grains B.P.) People back then called them LONG or SHORT Colts when making purchases......so do I today."


Elmer Keith also mentioned the existence of the short cartridge in Sixguns.
The 45 Government was for a time on the civilian market as the "45 Short Colt". It had a narrower rim then the 45 Smith & Wesson/45 Schofield. When I look at modern 45 Schofield brass it looks like a narrow rim.
Yup.

At one time, you could go into a store and buy two kinds of .45 Colt. One Long and one Short. Makes sense that people would differentiate between the two in the obvious way. Do we still need to differentiate between the two? Not really since the Short variety hasn't been sold in decades, but that's not the same thing as saying that it never existed or that there's never been any good reason for the .45 Long Colt designation.

And since both Colt and S&W have officially referred to either ammo or firearms using the .45 Long Colt designation at one time or another over the years it's hard to say that the name has no legitimacy.
Interesting. Made for the Redhawk but not the Blackhawk.
The Redhawk has a longer cylinder.
I've yet to see a headstamp say .45 Long Colt, it's always .45 Colt.
There have been some--a pic of one has even been posted on this thread.
 
f you are going to mention the Brits, who invented the language, get the spelling right! Sheesh!
To be accurate, the Brits invented and speak English.
On this side of the pond we don't speak English.


We speak 'Murican. Close, but not the same.

I mean, do you have a bonnet or a wing on your car ? Or is it equipped with a hood and fender ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top