.36 Penetration through Stacked Pine Boards

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gtrgy888

gtrgy888

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For the past 6 months, I’ve been carrying an 1851 replica with the logic that the proper way to appreciate history is to work around the limitations of the weapon and find out how to make it function as a deadly and reliable arm. I’m fairly close to that goal, since I can now guarantee 99% reliability with the caps and loading method I use. However, I still don’t trust ignition without seeing what it accomplishes on target (stacked 1 inch pine boards). To accomplish this, I’ve tested various loading methods once per month to get an idea how lethal loadings are when loaded fresh and after a month of carry.

Here’s some of what I’ve found:

30 grains maximum charge Triple 777 highly compressed, 5 weeks loaded, Bore Butter around balls, low moisture exposure: Punched through 4 boards, deflected off 5th. LETHAL. The greatest potential power of this weapon with .380 roundball.

30 grains ffffg Goex highly compressed, freshly loaded: 3 boards, dented 4th, busted 3rd in half. LETHAL.

28 grains ffffg Goex, 5 weeks loaded, exposed to moisture in air: Penetrated 1/2 board and bounced directly back. Ball flattened. Next shot penetrated 1.5 boards. NONLETHAL. Moisture exposure suspected, given no impact on previous Triple 777 powder loaded identically for the same time, but not moisture exposed.

140 grain Kaido conical bullet, tallow lubed:

21 grains ffffg Goex, freshly loaded: Punched through 6 boards, broke 5th in half. LETHAL.

Currently testing 2 weeks loaded 140 grain Kaido conicals loaded from freezer with only side grooves lubed and moisture exposed. Fingers crossed.
 
I believe the traditional 1" pine board penetration test (since then replaced with a block of standardized gelatin) was a baffle set up, 1" pine boards separated by 1" airspace.

I could snark that the pine board test tells you how a round would work on furniture; the gel block tells you how well the round would work on The Blob.

But a standardized test with standardized media does give us a repeatable test method for different rounds.
 
gtrgy888...

The test that resulted in a flattened ball... did that hit a knot or something...??

To bounce straight back and be flat... that is some mean pine boards. ;-)
 
Gtrgy888, I like your tests. I think it’s safe to say some people living during the time cap & ball revolvers were considered the latest in firearm technology probably carried the same loads for awhile and some didn’t. In fact, Wild Bill Hickock’s biographer stated he methodically fired and cleaned his 1851 revolvers daily and let people observe his uncanny accuracy. He wasn’t the only one. Hickock’s life depended on those revolvers firing dependably and he continued to carry them even when cartridge revolvers came on the scene.
 
Remember not all pine boards are the same. White pine is much softer than Yellow pine. And unless you plane the boards down from thicker boards they will measure 3/4" and not a true 1". Old boards from long ago really did measure their call sizes. A 1" board was really 1" think. And 2x4s really were 2"x4". Now that lumber is milled the sizes are slightly smaller.

But I like the test the OP is doing. I even made a thread about shooting wood baffles a while back but didn't get much in the way of responses. Long ago Mike Venturino did an article on testing rounds with wood baffles. But I guess its a forgotten testing method.
 
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Im so glad to see you did the test using 4f black powder which was closer to what was used in the paper cartridges sold back then. Thay will give your shots some extra "zip". ALSO really glad you tested the Kaido bullet...which is a heavy bullet with wide meplat...it shows the calibers true potential! Wonder what that load would do if you used the hotter 4f old eynsford or swiss! I love the .36 and as i have mentioned time and time again...it is very underrated.
 
troy fairweather said:
Asm 1851 navy, hornady .375 round ball. 12 grains pyrodex rs. This is about 18gr by weight using 2f black powder. 30 to 35 big steps so maybe 30 yards. Some shortening over the balls. Cci no10 caps.
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Now I'm impressed. At apx. 90' even with my diminished eye sight I could place a ball somewhere inside of a 20 inch square ( pray to God I never have to try) and it would serve as a deterrent based on your results. . Thank you
 
Rich1939 said:
Now I'm impressed. At apx. 90' even with my diminished eye sight I could place a ball somewhere inside of a 20 inch square ( pray to God I never have to try) and it would serve as a deterrent based on your results. . Thank you
Click to expand...
Ya black powder doesn't seem to translate well compared to modern stuff, but I would never underestimate what one could do.

about 20 years ago here in N.Y. State, they were working on changing the law so people that owned black powder pistols can shot them. In ny you have to have a pistol permit and have the gun on your permit to even own the components to fire the gun. I forget the exact numbers but there augment was something like it's been 75 years since someone was killed with a bp revolver. Just before they were looking to change they law someone gets killed by a 1860 colt if I remember right.

it seems way to convenient at the time, I
 
Quite interesting....,
Might be "LETHAL", might not. Your current tests should (ok yes imho) include accuracy and at what distance. o_O
Dome an assailant between the eyes, and you could be carrying a .31 pocket....,
Where you hit 'em, with modern stuff or with a '51 is still important. Putting the assailant down to halt return fire would be what I'd be looking to get. ;) Back in the days of no blood transfusions, no x-ryas, no anesthetic, and no antibiotics, there were a lot of folks shot that ended up with a lethal outcome... but it might take a while. Sometimes it wasn't lethal..., I've read how Jesse James carried a ball in one of his lungs from the Northfield failed robbery, for about 6 years until he was killed.

LD
 
Loyalist Dave said:
I've read how Jesse James carried a ball in one of his lungs from the Northfield failed robbery, for about 6 years until he was killed.
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I believe Jesse was shot in the lung during the Civil War and sent home to die. His cousin Zee Mimms took care of him and nursed him back to health and thats when they fell in love and were later married. In Northfield Frank and Jesse had jumped on the same horse during the escape and a bullet went through both of their legs at the knee. I think I have this story correct.
 
troy fairweather said:
Ya black powder doesn't seem to translate well compared to modern stuff, but I would never underestimate what one could doI
Click to expand...
I figured out about 60 years ago that what I had at the time(22, 22mag, 243, 357 BH, 30-30, 30-06 and a 12G plus a BP .36) was more than enough to cover what ever situation I was likely to encounter and I worked and played with what I had. I don't hunt anymore so most of those are gone. Except the 870 with a slug barrel, the BH and a cap gun. The cap gun is for fun but it's nice to know it can have another (though unlikely) use in HD.
 
ThomasT said:
I believe Jesse was shot in the lung during the Civil War and sent home to die. His cousin Zee Mimms took care of him and nursed him back to health and thats when they fell in love and were later married. In Northfield Frank and Jesse had jumped on the same horse during the escape and a bullet went through both of their legs at the knee. I think I have this story correct.
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In the real world, 99 and 44/100 of the people when hit, will quit. Don't matter where or with what.
 
MIOkie said:
gtrgy888...

The test that resulted in a flattened ball... did that hit a knot or something...??

To bounce straight back and be flat... that is some mean pine boards. ;-)
Click to expand...

The first hit right above a knot (apparently not high enough), so that could have done it. But the 2nd shot was through flat white pine, so power was likely compromised. Neither board was even cracked! It was disappointing. Nothing worse than propping the boards, drawing a careful bead, shooting, and hearing the ball harmlessly tumbling on the ground back towards my feet.

Watching the fresh loaded conical throwing the whole stack after plowing through and breaking pieces off was downright therapeutic by comparison.

Distance was about 7 paces. As far away as I could comfortably shoot a 4”x6”x6” stack without worrying about deflection.
 
How was it compromised and exposed to moisture? Was it loaded and left uncapped or with a loose cap? Curious on how it got access to moisture. I have stored cylinders loaded but i always put an unprimed homemade cap on them to seal the nipples to protect from moisture...and i was never sure if it helped or not but did it anyways due to living in a very humid environment and didnt want to risk the powder absorbing humidity.
 
I routinely reloaded my NMA after cleaning and religiously was at the range at least once a month, well, until I moved and the outdoor range is over an hour away. It sat for 6 years (I’m in central TX so it’s quite humid for a long stretch of time) and each chamber went off with typical authority. It was loaded with 3F Triple 7. I use my bullets so there’s no substantial amount of Gatofeo’s #1 lube touching the powder, though I decided to punch cereal box cardboard over powder cards anyway.
 
Rich1939 said:
In the real world, 99 and 44/100 of the people when hit, will quit. Don't matter where or with what.
Click to expand...

UH NO..., WOW..., that thinking will get a person killed. :confused:

It's well documented that when using a handgun, back in BP days or even today, that unless the shooter gets an incapacitation hit [brain/spine aka the T-zone], then multiple hits will be needed from the handgun to get the attacker to halt their attack. Even when the attacker is sober and clean, and when the hits are mortal wounds, to include hitting the heart.

The modern "double tap" concept is a direct result of this observation..., that multiple hits are normally needed, including hits from .45 caliber lead projectiles. What modern shooting courses and IPSC style shooting does not train the shooter to do, is after the targets are "down" i.e. have been shot twice, the shooter never has to reengage one or more of the previously neutralized targets. Not because the target is simulating body armor, but because not all people shot and go down stay down or disengage from a fight.

LD
 
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