Massachusetts police officer sues gunmaker over a handgun that allegedly fires on its own

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That pistol seems to have adopted by the Army. So far, no public reports of such a problem from that angle. Of course, soldiers are far better trained than just cops. (That was satire for anyone in doubt.)

I'm also curious as to how a striker fired pistol fires all by itself. Doesn't the striker have to be compressed, at least a bit?

Also, I don't think soldiers have loaded guns all the time.

I'm not saying the brand, but I discovered that excessive clearance between the top of the firing pin and the hole it rode in, would allow the firing pin to slip off the sear if dropped on its slide. No danger, it was just cocked, but there you go. Serendipitous discovery, only happened accidentally once, but that was my diagnosis after examination and testing.

Not saying it was the same problem with the SIg-Sauer guns, but guns can go off unexpectedly. Some States require drop tests to eliminate this particular "problem."

I myself had a holster-gun combination where I lived in fear of the trigger being snagged by a part of the safety strap as I holstered it.

I remember reading about a particular holster which had a tendency to click the 1911 safety off if things were just right...no, make that "wrong."

I have no doubt that in the "mob rules" atmosphere of the day, LEOs might be looking for any escape route, but from the reported number of incidents, this one seems like it has a core of legitimacy.

Terry, 230RN
 
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Also, I don't think soldiers have loaded guns all the time.

When they do have loaded weapons, the number of negligent discharges increase. The statistics are hard to find, but at times I have read material that friendly shootings exceed enemy shootings.

Negligent discharges: How they affect service members

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/12275/negligent-discharges-they-affect-service-members

BAGRAM AIR FIELD, AFGHANISTAN

09.08.2007

The CJTF-82 General Order # 1 and the CJTF-82 Basic Standards Book also dictates when service members can chamber a round in their weapon.

"A round doesn't go into the chamber when you are on the [forward operating base,"] said Brooks. "There is no round chambered on the FOB! The only time a round is chambered is when you go out of a FOB and the leader of that convoy gives the key words 'lock and load weapons'"

Brooks said there isn't a need to keep rounds chambered in weapons on the FOB.


Since January 2007*, there have been 126 reported negligent discharges in the Operation Enduring Freedom area of operation resulting in the deaths of three people and the injuring of 11 people.

A negligent discharge can injure or kill someone. Therefore, a service member who has a negligent discharge can face punishment for their action.

"They can be charged with a crime punishable under the [Uniform Code of Military Justice,]" said Army Capt. Brendan Gilbert, a CJTF-82 trial counsel.

Following an investigation, the service member's commander determines whether punitive action is necessary and, if so, what the punishment will be, Gilbert said.

"He has the right to do anything from corrective training to an Article 15 ... to a summary court-martial to a general court-martial," he said.

Service members can also receive a written reprimand, which could be placed in their permanent file. Gilbert said this can have a lasting effect on a person's career by negatively affecting one's competitiveness for promotions.

While one possible response to a negligent discharge can be corrective training, Soldiers can face penalties of up to three months confinement and forfeiture of two-thirds pay for three months, according to the UCMJ, under Article 134.

If there are aggravating circumstances involved in the incident, such as injury to another party or the discharge places a mission at risk, service members can find themselves in even more trouble.

"If a Soldier is found to be grossly negligent, not just simply negligent, depending on what happened, the Soldier could be charged with other offenses," Gilbert said.

CJTF-82 has launched a campaign to curb the number of negligent discharges in Afghanistan.

"In March, Command Sergeant Major [Thomas] Capel directed everyone in CJTF-82 to train on proper clearing procedures," Henderson said. He also noted the task force is taking other initiatives to prevent negligent discharges by running stories on the radio, television and in unit newsletters.

It appears, despite a consistent number of negligent discharges per month, the push for weapons safety is having an effect.

One example is CJTF-82 conducting safety check points on a bi-monthly basis for vehicular safety and weapon safety here. The random checks began in February and service members had an 85 percent failure rate for properly conducting safe weapon clearing. Since then, Henderson said service members have turned it around and now boast an 85 percent pass rate.

"It all boils down like everything else; it goes down to the first line supervisor," Henderson said.

"Everybody has a sergeant, even Major General [David] Rodriguez has a sergeant," Henderson said referring to Capel.

"It is incumbent on that sergeant that everyone is trained on clearing procedures," he added.

"Combined Joint Task Force-82 standards tell us anytime you clear a weapon you must be supervised. If a supervisor is there during a weapons clearing procedure, you will not have a negligent discharge," Brooks said.

Regulations regarding the safe clearing of weapons can be found in the CJTF-82 Basic Standards Book, as well as, instructions for properly clearing weapons used by U.S. service members.

"If we do the number one thing Combined Joint Task Force-82 says to do, have a supervisor there, you will not have a negligent discharge because now you have two people clearing the weapon, two sets of eyes on that weapon," Brooks said.

The CJTF-82 General Order # 1 and the CJTF-82 Basic Standards Book also dictates when service members can chamber a round in their weapon.

"A round doesn't go into the chamber when you are on the [forward operating base,"] said Brooks. "There is no round chambered on the FOB! The only time a round is chambered is when you go out of a FOB and the leader of that convoy gives the key words 'lock and load weapons'"

Brooks said there isn't a need to keep rounds chambered in weapons on the FOB.

"The atmosphere really doesn't put us in a position to walk around with loaded weapons," he said. "Yes, there is a magazine in your weapon, but the weapon is not locked and loaded. If a Soldier was to get into any type of trouble, he will have enough time to lock and load that weapon."

The battalion command sergeant major also noted safety reasons for not locking and loading.

"You don't want to keep a weapon loaded because when you go into a DFAC or into a PX someone could accidentally go from safe to fire and accidentally hurt someone," he said.
 
Like I’ve always said, There are a lot of people that know a lot about things that they know very little about.
The Glock pistols have three safeties, four if one counts the mass between their ears that controls the trigger finder.
I’m not big on cut and paste, but here’s a few pics showing the three safeties.
View attachment 1006036
View attachment 1006037
For those that wish to know a little more about the safeties you can find the information here.
https://overwatchprecision.com/blog/glock-safeties-the-basics/

What odd though is that Glock used to have a pic on thier site showing the trigger safety as part of the drop safety.

In this thread is was discussed a lot deeper and seemed to be determined that it was a part of the drop safety.

@JohnKSa explained it better than I could with out copying his words.

I dont know why glock would change the pic.


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ly-drop-safe-even-in-the-summer.798045/page-2
 
What odd though is that Glock used to have a pic on thier site showing the trigger safety as part of the drop safety.

In this thread is was discussed a lot deeper and seemed to be determined that it was a part of the drop safety.

@JohnKSa explained it better than I could with out copying his words.

I dont know why glock would change the pic.


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ly-drop-safe-even-in-the-summer.798045/page-2
The safety on the trigger does stop the rearward travel of the trigger if it is not depressed. It does help if the gun is dropped, but it is not the drop safety. There’s that slight possibility that it could depress if it struck the ground in a certain way, but it is highly unlikely. The drop safety is at the rear of the trigger bar. The trigger has to be fully depressed for the bar to move out of the slot that it rest in. It’s really a simple design that works. If you have a friend that has a Glock and knows how to take it apart, not field strip, but fully disable, ask him to show you how it works.
Sig didn’t have a safety on the trigger of the P320. When dropped and hitting the ground at a certain angle, the weight of the trigger was enough to cause the trigger to move to the rear. The new triggers are thinner and lighter.
But we’re getting a little off topic here.
What I would like to know is, why did the officer remove his loaded weapon from his holster in a vehicle with other officers.
I carried Glock pistols on duty for 18 years and a S&W for two years. When I got dressed for work, I would check my weapon to make sure that it was loaded. It was then holstered. At no time it was removed from the holster unless it was needed, or had to be but into a lock box when going into the PPT (prisoner processing and transporting) area, the Parish Prison or the federal court house. It was never taken out for show and tell.
Riding in a vehicle with other officers is not the place to check your gun or holster. But when someone does something stupid, many will try to put the blame on someone else, or something.
I was in my early 40s when I bought my first striker fire pistol. It was my department issued Gen3 Glock 22. It also happened to be the first strike fire pistol that I was trained on.
There are many members here, mostly older ones, that don’t care for striker fire pistols. Most often it’s because they have never been trained, or should I say, properly trained in the use of them. Some prefer other types of pistols, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
You wouldn’t believe the amount of younger people that don’t know how to use a revolver, much less un-cock one. It’s not because they are stupid. They have just never been tough how to use one.
But the officers in this case was not a ruckie. He should of known better.
 
Very well said, Gunny.... The correct name for most unauthorized firearm discharges is NEGLIGENT discharge since that's what's involved the vast majority of the time, period. Make any excuse you choose, sugar coat it if you can, but negligence is the usual over-riding factor.

The truth is that anyone that carries or handles firearms can find themselves in that situation - that's why we train and enforce safety rules for weapons. Given that at any time there are too many folks with guns that simply haven't been taught the basics with an emphasis on safety first... dealing with any armed individual is a hazardous business at best -and that's when there's not been a single shot fired at all...
 
I don't want one of those striker fired pistols as I consider them an accident waiting to happen. The firing mechanism is perpetually cocked, the firing pin under spring tension, this is the safety on a Glock, for example.

View attachment 1005867

and it does not take much to have one of those things go off. This is a 2017 video about the Sig P320 going off if it is dropped on the back of the slide. What has changed?



It does not take much time or effort to find accidental discharges with a SIG P320

Sig Sauer P320 pistol mishaps reported

Sig Sauer Faces $10 Million Lawsuit over P320 Pistol After Alleged Accidental Discharge Wounds Federal Agent

Class Action Lawsuit in Texas



What happened when a SEPTA officer’s handgun spontaneously fired in Philly’s Suburban Station



After Year-long Legal Battle, SEPTA is Complying With Requests For Evidence in Harrowing 2019 Incident in Which An On-duty Transit Cop's Gun Fired Without Him Touching The Weapon


Every time I read of an owner being shot with their striker fired weapon, it just reinforces my opinion to stay away from those things.

Hammer down baby. De energize the firing mechanism so it won't go off by itself.

View attachment 1005872


"Hammer down baby" on a 1911 ?

THAT is actually LESS safe than a striker fired pistol AND
in addition to possibly causing a "ND", it's more likely to
get you shot in a real "SD": scenario.

If you're too "scared" to carry a 1911 in "Condition 1", you
should be carrying a revolver, or other "double action" type
weapons - really.
 
My question would be......why would he have felt the need to remove his weapon in a crowded van and wave it around as described in the article? An obstruction in his holster? Really? Would the gun have gone off if it had stayed in the holster? I don't believe it. Sounds like a case of if you tell a story long enough, some folks will believe it.

A high number of ND's occur when the weapon is handled. Had the gun gone off sitting in his holster, there could be some credibility to the story.

For the most part I subscribe a lot of reports as promoted by the loser of said contract awarded to SIG. It is the internet, there are large corporations hired specifically to influence the news and forums. Strangely enough, the only people who seem to disbelieve it are gun owners - yet those of us who were raised on gun writers and their poetic prose praising every single new gun introduced on the market have a different take on that. All the net did was offer the other side of the coin, covert trash talking of the competition, which also aids the anti gunners efforts to divide and conquer.

If you want to discern who might be behind it, consider which firearms maker has no complaints at all that publicly surface, yet the forums for that make are just as full of reports of issues as any other. The absence of news is just as telling as publishing it.
 
The Glock pistols have three safeties, four if one counts the mass between their ears. . .
An interesting question to hash out would be nomenclature for the range of safeties and mechanical interlocks in a mechanism.

- the safety selector on a 1911 seems to be an active safety. The user has to actively do something with it.
- the grip safety on a 1911 is sort of a safety. . . let's call it a passive safety since it isn't designed to require intentional manipulation, but does require direct interaction.
- the pin block a 1911, which I would call an interlock, since the user never directly interacts with it, but it prevents an internal failure mode.

So, in this nomenclature, the Glock has a single passive safety (the trigger dingus), and a couple interlocks.
 
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Brooks said there isn't a need to keep rounds chambered in weapons on the FOB.

Where I was, this CSM would have been clearly proven wrong. But our command always does things different from 82nd. At our COP (combat outpost, much smaller than a FOB) chambered weapons were the norm inside the base. We had one ND caused by a US service member, M16 round went safely up through the roof of the barracks. No injury other than ringing ears. We also had 400 armed locals on post but we didn't keep track of their NDs.

The focus on the suit being brought by a police officer is humorous to me. I know officers that didn't know the difference between an M&P and a Glock. Vast majority are not what I would call "gun people" when they only did service qualification once a year, maybe.
 
An interesting question to hash out would be nomenclature for the range of safeties and mechanical interlocks in a mechanism.

- the safety selector on a 1911 seems to be an active safety. The user has to actively do something with it.
- the grip safety on a 1911 is sort of a safety. . . let's call it a passive safety since it isn't designed to require intentional manipulation, but does require direct interaction.
- the pin block a 1911, which I would call an interlock, since the user never directly interacts with it, but it prevents an internal failure mode.

So, in this nomenclature, the Glock has a single passive safety (the trigger dingus), and a couple interlocks.
You are correct, but there have been many NDs with 1911 pistols. Many happen when the person is trying to de-cock the pistols with a round in the chamber. The biggest reason for this is lack of training or just negligence.
 
Years ago, a Nephew 12, - wanted to learn to shoot.
After a class on safety and the 4 rules, I handed him an empty revolver hoping he would open the cylinder to verify empty .
He immediate put his finger on the trigger and looked into the cylinder.
LESSON OVER!
I gave him a set of grip only, and said you will hold these at all time for one week.

Today he is an accomplished competitor and Iraq vet.
 
You are correct, but there have been many NDs. . .
No buts about it! No safety, active or passive, can provide much protection against negligence. Some active safeties might help a little.

But I have to say. . . an ND caused by attempting to decock a chambered 1911 deserves extra credit of some kind. That's less negligence than actively malicious stupidity.
 
But I have to say. . . an ND caused by attempting to decock a chambered 1911 deserves extra credit of some kind. That's less negligence than actively malicious stupidity.

Not to blind side you too badly, but too bad you can't tell that to John Browning. His reply would be interesting.

This is text from the 1910 patent, John Browning's safety position is the half cock, and that was how he designed the pistol, that was to become the 1911, to be carried. Round in the chamber, hammer down on the half cock.

Patent 984,519 J. M. Browning, Firearm,
application filed Feb 17 1910. Patented Feb 14 1911.

Page 7

Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act, because the trigger had to be pulled with the first finger of the right-hand to release the hammer and the grip-lever had simultaneously to be pressed into the grip to release the trigger for operation, to the keeping of the thumb of the right hand in a horizontal position on the side of the grip. Therefore it was impracticable to also extend the thumb of the right hand, while this hand pressed in the grip-lever and pulled the trigger, upward so as to rest upon the thumb-piece of the hammer and, thus controlling the hammer, to gently lower the same and restrain it from falling and from striking the firing pin, because any attempt to do this would result in loosening the necessary hold upon the grip-lever. Consequently the lowering the hammer had to be performed by the other hand, this is a serious drawback in a military arm, as a soldier and especially a mounted soldier does not in action have both hands free for such use. To overcome this difficulty, I have provided the grip-lever w with projecting nose w2 in rear of its pivot, which stands closely in rear of and below the hammer when cocked, and the hammer is so fitted that it may be drawn rearward somewhat father than to its cocked position. When the hammer is drawn fully back it strikes the nose w2 and, by pressing the same downward, it caused the grip-lever to turn on its pivot forcing the lower portion into the grip, thereby releasing the trigger. By this arrangement the thumb of the hand grasping the grip needs not to be kept at the side of the grip need not to be kept at the side of the grip for pressing in the grip-lever, but the thumb may be applied to the hammer and through the same operate the grip lever to release the trigger, then the trigger may be operated with the first finger of the same hand to release the hammer and finally the thumb, still applied to the hammer, may allow the same to slowly descend to the safety position, without requiring the aid of the other hand. The rearward projecting nose w2 of the grip-lever w below the hammer q and in rear of the pivot pin w1, serves to perform another important function in addition to that of providing the point of contact between the grip lever and the hammer, by means of which the grip lever may be operated to release the trigger by drawing the hammer fully rearward, as hereinbefore described.


Links and pictures from Sam Laker’s ColtAutos.com

This is an exceedingly rare pistol, Sam has pictures of serial number 2, and it is not retrofitted for the thumb safety, and this one, serial number 5, is in the original 1910 troop trails configuration.


1910_5.jpg


this is serial number six

1910_6.jpg

John Browning designed this so his primary customer, the horse cavalry, could make the pistol safe with one hand by lowering the hammer to the half cock. The Army must not have trusted the half cock as a safety, and the Army's pre WW1 practice was to carry the thing, in the flap holster, round in the chamber, hammer down. The Cavalry would never have accepted the 1910 over their beloved revolvers unless John Browning came up with a better way to make the pistol "safe" with one hand, and that is how the thumb safety came about. Still, the thumb safety was only a temporary measure, until the horseman got things calmed down, and was able to lower the hammer all the way down, and put the pistol back in the flap holster.

While Cult Cocked and Locked has extensively modified 1911's so they can play quick draw games, the Cavalry carried the 1911 inside a flap holster, on the bottom of their ammunition belt. A military unit of 1000 horsemen is not going to be surprised easily, so quick draw games were not a consideration. It is evident the Army was more worried about weapon retention and the weather, than drawing a pistol faster than a rattlesnake.

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Not to blind side you too badly, but too bad you can't tell that to John Browning.
I know; you and I have talked about this before. I stand by my characterization.

For the same reason we don't still carry Colt SAA's with all chambers loaded or use exposed-trigger holsters, we don't decock 1911s. We know better now.

Also I suspect JMB knew better at the time. He was working to win US Dept of War business, and their ideas differed from his on many points, safeties and single-action among them.
 
It is not inconceivable that a good and orderly manual of arms would include a redundant press check (i.e. in the SWAT van enroute to the shindig).

Granted, I'd prefer it had been done in the arms room before loading up, but checking in a vehicle isn't absolutely wrong.

Pulling the trigger by negligence is.

Never understood the idea of the press check myself… Always know what condition your firearms in. How do you not remember if it’s got a round in the chamber? Didn’t you put it there?
 
Never understood the idea of the press check myself… Always know what condition your firearms in. How do you not remember if it’s got a round in the chamber? Didn’t you put it there?
It is common among LEOs and people that carry a firearm for duty purposes, to check that the gun is loaded if it leaves your sight, or control. Every day when I came home from work, I would remove my gun belt and put it away with the gun loaded and still in the holster. The next day when I put my gun belt back on, I would take the gun from the holster and check to make sure there was a cartridge in the chamber. A lot of people do a press check to do this. But if the gun has a load indicator, a press check is not required. I would run my finger over the extractor on my Glock to tell if it was loaded.
We had a Sargent on our department that wasn’t very gun smart. She went on a call with two other officers about a man waving a gun around in his front yard. When they got to the house the suspect was inside. The two officers stationed themselves on each side of the doorway and the Sargent stood off to the side. They knocked on the door. The door opened and as the man stepped out, he brought up his handgun and fired a round. The officers and the Sargent had their guns out and fired back. One round struck the door frame and another struck the man in his leg.
With all shootings, there’s an investigation. The officers and Sargent’s guns were collected at the scene along with their magazines, and issued replacements. The two officers and the Sargent said that they had each fired one round. It was determined that the Sargent had not fired a round from her gun. She had a fully loaded magazine in her gun but no round in the chamber. The Sargent had qualified at the range a month before and had not chambered a round after she cleaned her weapon.o_O
But loaded up in a vehicle with a bunch of others is not a place to start messing with your weapon. But I’ve known several people that knew how to handle guns have a brain fart and do something stupid.
 
My favorite ND on the job was the doofus that popped a round off of his shotgun - while it was in the rack secured to the dashboard of his patrol vehicle... Big noise, terrified officer, nice neat hole in the roof of the cruiser... ND's on the job are probably to be found in the histories of every outfit that has armed workers out and about daily. The ones that don't result in any injury or deaths are the stuff of legend - and the occasional great story... The few that wind up injuring or killing someone are the stuff of tragedy...

You'll note I'm very carefully not telling any stories about myself.... weapons handling and safety are something we all have to work at- particularly when a weapon is part of your daily routine -whether you're a rank beginner or a very experienced individual.. At least that's my take on it...
 
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