what's the deal on .40 SW?

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thunderbyrd said:
since i've been reading up on all things gun-related, i've noticed that the .40 sw isn't very popular, but i don't know why.
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Glock released 5 new 40S&W models this year.
https://us.glock.com/en/Pistols?filter=40sundw

Off topic....they gave John Hinkley an unconditional release today despite having shot a US president in the lung (among others). And he is no longer prohibited from buying a firearm.
 
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I adopted the 9mm early on, mainly because my Dad, a WWII vet, seemed to have a healthy respect for it. He would read articles by Col Cooper about what a loser round 9mm was, and say “don’t believe it”. I started with a nazi surplus Polish Radom when most cops were carrying 38’s.
So, I have always been satisfied with the nine.
But the cheap police surplus .40’s were hard to resist, and I bought a like new Gen4 G22 with night sights for $279. One trip to the range, and I found I really liked the 40…Loaded with 180gn HST, it has become my primary home defense gun. As for being snappy, I don’t notice much difference between my G17 loaded with +P or +P+ service ammo and the G22. A lot of the comparisons are done with cheap 9mm fmj range ammo, I think.
 
amd6547 said:
As for being snappy, I don’t notice much difference between my G17 loaded with +P or +P+ service ammo and the G22. A lot of the comparisons are done with cheap 9mm fmj range ammo, I think.
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That is a good point. I have noticed very little difference between typical .40 180gr (common weight) range ammo, and 180gr JHP defense ammo in terms of advertised velocities. But 9mm range ammo seems to be mostly 115gr, and is typically not running at the same level as 9mm JHP defense ammo.
 
WrongHanded said:
That is a good point. I have noticed very little difference between typical .40 180gr (common weight) range ammo, and 180gr JHP defense ammo in terms of advertised velocities. But 9mm range ammo seems to be mostly 115gr, and is typically not running at the same level as 9mm JHP defense ammo.
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Yep, any comparison needs to take into account that the mass produced range ammo is a lot lighter in recoil and much less velocity compared to JHP or even some standard FMJ ammo. 100 fps difference can mean the difference between snappy and not bad.
 
edwardware said:
The 10mm was going to be grand, and then it turned out the FBI was a bit too limp to handle a man's cartridge. . . hence the .40 Short 'n Weak was born. Wedged in that uncomfortable gap between the effete European 9mm Luger and the Manly Hairy Chested .45ACP
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Meanwhile I've yet to meet anyone that would volunteer to be shot by a short & weak or effete round.
 
This thread reminds me that I need to buy a mold for 40 S&W bullets. :D

Nothing wrong with the 40, if one can shoot good with it. Of course production is not high on priority for ammo manufacturers compared to 9 and 45, IMO.

I do kick myself for not buying that used SR40c that a LGS had a couple years ago.
 
I bought one of those cheap S&W 40 caliber pistols (SDW40 or whatever it was) a few years back when 40 caliber ammo was way easier to find than 9mm. The pistol was reliable, but with a horrible trigger. I eventually traded the pistol towards something else, but I liked the caliber.

Then we got all of those super cheap 40 caliber police trade-ins a few years back and I got two Berettas, a Sig, and a Glock for next to nothing.

I don't find 40 caliber recoil to be offensive. It puts slightly larger holes in things than a 9mm. I would feel equally well-armed with a good 9mm, 40 caliber, or 45acp pistol.

What's not to like?

And here's a gratuitous picture of my double-stack 40 caliber 1911, just because. :)

RIA 1911 40 caliber double stack

RIA 1911 40 caliber double stack

 
thunderbyrd said:
since i've been reading up on all things gun-related, i've noticed that the .40 sw isn't very popular, but i don't know why. the .40 was the first semi-auto cartridge i ever shot, other than .22. on my job, we'd been carrying SW 686 then went over to the .40 glocks. i was impressed by those glocks in a big way. about 15 of us were qualifying and we all shot somewhere between 200-300 rounds and in all that, i saw exactly one malfunction, a stovepipe. my gun never malfunctioned at all. i took it out to my father's farm and put a bunch more through it and no trouble at all.

i was talking to a guy who is a big time long time gun guy the other day and he was telling me how awful the .40 is, but i never got exactly what was so awful about it.

if there's really something wrong with it, i'd like to know cause i've got about 200 of 'em sitting on my shelf.[/QU

upload_2021-9-28_9-3-7.jpeg
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thunderbyrd said:
since i've been reading up on all things gun-related, i've noticed that the .40 sw isn't very popular, but i don't know why. the .40 was the first semi-auto cartridge i ever shot, other than .22. on my job, we'd been carrying SW 686 then went over to the .40 glocks. i was impressed by those glocks in a big way. about 15 of us were qualifying and we all shot somewhere between 200-300 rounds and in all that, i saw exactly one malfunction, a stovepipe. my gun never malfunctioned at all. i took it out to my father's farm and put a bunch more through it and no trouble at all.

i was talking to a guy who is a big time long time gun guy the other day and he was telling me how awful the .40 is, but i never got exactly what was so awful about it.

if there's really something wrong with it, i'd like to know cause i've got about 200 of 'em sitting on my shelf.
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upload_2021-9-28_9-4-2.jpeg
Your title got me.
 
edwardware said:
The 10mm was going to be grand, and then it turned out the FBI was a bit too limp to handle a man's cartridge. . . hence the .40 Short 'n Weak was born. Wedged in that uncomfortable gap between the effete European 9mm Luger and the Manly Hairy Chested .45ACP (the way John Moses Browning intended, dammit!) it just doesn't do much that something else doesn't do better.

The spawn of high aspirations and small wrists.

:neener:
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I am totally with you , Sir !
Not that I don't like the Euro 9mm NATO , but lets face it the .40 S&W is a notch above the 9mm in power factor. t
This baloney about magik bullet technology making 9mm = .40 at same velocities is pretty unhistorical and un scientific. I still have two boxes of 9mm Supervel with Lee Juras 100 grain hollow points from the 1980s that always flatten to 1/2" and have used them on quite a few animals of varying weight and they have shallow penetration. I also have used the 147 grain Winchester Ranger 9mm +P as ny last slaughter cartridge for a couple years and it has better penetration , but not like a 180 grain .40 in hole size or penetration. Federal 180 HST or the Winchester Ranger either ! Either caliber bullets can be "bonded" these days BTW .
The .40 does recoil snappier in same format as a 9mm and 9mm offers a few shots extra in mag capacity. It is cheaper to manufacture and that makes it so popular because of the # of training rounds used.
10mm is really popular now in Alaska and the North Country of the US and rightfully so as the 200 grain bulleted loads have been developed to have adequate penetration on the largest of creatures and the caliber is sufficient to get good results.
I have two Walther PPS M1s , one in .40 and one in 9mm . I carried the .40 a couple years as I felt is was the smallest with the mostest . Before that is was the same with a Glock 27 over my Glock 26 . Also have a Sig 239 in .40 with .357 Sig and 9mm Barrels to compare the three calibers equally and did so over 10 years. I prefer the .40 for defensive use . I also have a built like a tank S&W 4006 CHP unissued pistol that seems incredible as a duty gun. IMHO a poor decision to go away from it , but thats California and I think you folks know clearly now what that states agenda is.
I have alot of .40 S&W ammo bought cheaply during Obama build up of Trillion rounds for HLS !
 
Roverguy said:
But there is an increasing body of evidence that suggests hand guns from 38 special through the 45 cals deliver very similar results - ie there is no clear and obvious evidence that larger calibers in this range are more debilitating or lethal in actual use.
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I think this is a large part of the .40's decreasing popularity with LEO. When I was wanting my first handgun 15+ years ago all the handgun mags still had monthly "9mm vs .40S&W" articles, and I got hung up on energy charts and just the seemingly common sense that a larger bullet, going about the same speed, will be more damaging so I bought a .40 s&w handgun.

Now there seems to be a little bit of information on the lethality of different cartridges, and it seems you can really divide them into 2 camps: handguns and long guns.

Most handgun cartridges perform very similarly on 2 legged creatures, and most rifle/shotgun rounds perform a magnitude better. The real world difference between the effectiveness of a 9mm and a .40S&W is like trying to split hairs because they are SO similar. We're only talking a diameter difference of 0.045" so I don't buy the "it makes a bigger hole" argument. When measuring the vitals of a a man-sized target that's a rounding error.
 
bassjam said:
I think this is a large part of the .40's decreasing popularity with LEO. When I was wanting my first handgun 15+ years ago all the handgun mags still had monthly "9mm vs .40S&W" articles, and I got hung up on energy charts and just the seemingly common sense that a larger bullet, going about the same speed, will be more damaging so I bought a .40 s&w handgun.

Now there seems to be a little bit of information on the lethality of different cartridges, and it seems you can really divide them into 2 camps: handguns and long guns.

Most handgun cartridges perform very similarly on 2 legged creatures, and most rifle/shotgun rounds perform a magnitude better. The real world difference between the effectiveness of a 9mm and a .40S&W is like trying to split hairs because they are SO similar. We're only talking a diameter difference of 0.045" so I don't buy the "it makes a bigger hole" argument. When measuring the vitals of a a man-sized target that's a rounding error.
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Well I guess the Massive amount of battlefield results from the .38 Long Colt of the Moro infamy with the improved results of the adoption of .45 Colt , thru WW1 battle data with the American use of .45 and the WW2 use of same thru the Vietnam conflict and later. The insistence of Special Operations people from field results with the .45 acp to continue with special pistols has no validity when trumped by "inclusive" non living subject "scientific data" that appeals to management .
I totally agree rifles, 2000 fps + carbines and close range shotguns deliver vastly more stopping and lethality power than normal trans sonic handguns. BUT they are not concealable, nor EDC friendly .

I am not against the 9mm , but really admire the .40S&W for offering more stopping power in the same size package as the 9mm.by creating a little larger wound channel and better bone structure breaking mass . I prefer .45 acp if the size of the format can be a little bigger and heavier , which is not allways the case , including for my current uses.
 
Gordon said:
Well I guess the Massive amount of battlefield results from the .38 Long Colt of the Moro infamy with the improved results of the adoption of .45 Colt , thru WW1 battle data with the American use of .45 and the WW2 use of same thru the Vietnam conflict and later. The insistence of Special Operations people from field results with the .45 acp to continue with special pistols has no validity when trumped by "inclusive" non living subject "scientific data" that appeals to management .
I totally agree rifles, 2000 fps + carbines and close range shotguns deliver vastly more stopping and lethality power than normal trans sonic handguns. BUT they are not concealable, nor EDC friendly .

I am not against the 9mm , but really admire the .40S&W for offering more stopping power in the same size package as the 9mm.by creating a little larger wound channel and better bone structure breaking mass . I prefer .45 acp if the size of the format can be a little bigger and heavier , which is not allways the case , including for my current uses.
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I should have added the caveat of "with modern ammo" because should have known someone would eventually make an argument based old cartridges that were filled with black powder and loaded with solid lead slugs. And I'm not going to give credit to wwii stories of guys getting knocked 10ft backwards when hit with a .45acp (and remember, we're talking ball ammo which is a different ballgame than the hollowpoints we carry).

As to .45 acp with special forces, my understanding is that in the vast majority of instances they still carry 9mm. They just keep some .45's in their arsenal for use with suppressors as it's subsonic. Pretty sure they keep a pretty wide variety of cartridges in the wheel house depending on their missions and it's not always about "knock down power".
 
bassjam said:
I should have added the caveat of "with modern ammo" because should have known someone would eventually make an argument based old cartridges that were filled with black powder and loaded with solid lead slugs. And I'm not going to give credit to wwii stories of guys getting knocked 10ft backwards when hit with a .45acp (and remember, we're talking ball ammo which is a different ballgame than the hollowpoints we carry).

As to .45 acp with special forces, my understanding is that in the vast majority of instances they still carry 9mm. They just keep some .45's in their arsenal for use with suppressors as it's subsonic. Pretty sure they keep a pretty wide variety of cartridges in the wheel house depending on their missions and it's not always about "knock down power".
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Wrong on all three of your accounts ;
#1 that old black powder velocities of both the .38 Long Colt and the .45 Colt were the same as today with nitro powder with in any amount that counted. The Old .45 Colt was known to be 900 FPS with a 255 grain Bullet and the hot black powder it was loaded with in a 7 1/2" barrel ! Velocity is velocity. The OLD Thompson LaGaurde tests in 1904 of pistol cartridge effectiveness were conducted on cadavers AND live animals and the large calibers ruled and the new at the time European calibers were tested. True bullet profile matters on bleed out time and tissue destruction , I am not argueing that point ! In warfare we used to be limited in bullet profile and exspansive lead slugs.
#2 Stories about "getting knocked backwards" with .45 bullets is indeed not all that occured. The NVA I shot as he charged by with an explosive vest was not knocked backward with 3 to the chest and 2 other places , he went face down as it caused him to trip or collapse , and the two to back of head before slide lock instantly ended his ability to pull the detonator . It was war. I doubt similar RN 9mm would have done the same frankly.
#3 I personally know special op guys, have trained with them and they are friends. They are extremely accurate with bullet placement after week in week out months and months of high round count long training sessions under stress. , they do use modern HP ammo in the last 20 years, at least . Depending on the mission they MAY draw a .45 even tho issued 9mm currently. .45 is heavy and has less capacity generally but in SOME occasions they still use it, and guess why ? A .45 Ranger 230 grain +p and others expands to near 12 gauge diameter ! 900 fps provide 12-13" of penetration is why a 3/4" 1/2 .oz slug puts people down quickly and these guys can handle the recoil and large firearms !
 
I always liked the 40, been around when it was first brought on stage. Wonderful shooting caliber, especially in the larger 45 size pistols. Then they found they could cram it into a 9mm size pistol, and then you got a third pin on the Glocks and more wear and tear on others.

Love the Sig 299 and HK USP in 40. Don’t think it gets any better than that. XD Tactical…..close second to those two. My first duty weapon in 40.

I have learned from every “event” and shortage in the last twenty years. And this one has thought me to never go with a very common caliber. I will stick to 40SW/38Super for my bottom feeders. Their ammo was the last to go in a panic and the first ones I see on the shelf nowadays.

Lefty
 
If I'm not mistaken, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the ballistics of 40 s&w loaded with 180g bullets, and 45acp loaded with 185g bullets are nearly identical, aren't they? I don't think there's anything wrong with 40 S&W, and I think its a more powerful round than 9mm, better capacity than 45....its just not better enough to get people to make the switch for the long term
 
bersaguy said:
If I'm not mistaken, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the ballistics of 40 s&w loaded with 180g bullets, and 45acp loaded with 185g bullets are nearly identical, aren't they? I don't think there's anything wrong with 40 S&W, and I think its a more powerful round than 9mm, better capacity than 45....its just not better enough to get people to make the switch for the long term
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Well put !
 
Interesting article by Larry Mudgett about Jeff Cooper and the .40 S&W

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/jeff-cooper-on-40-handguns/

a couple sentences that caught my attention:

“When the FBI decided that the 10 mm had too much recoil and the guns were too big and heavy for agents, Smith and Wesson dusted off Jeff’s (and Whit Collins).40 G&A project and created the .40 S&W. Jeff liked the .40 S&W but preferred to see it loaded with a 200 grain bullet at 1,000 FPS rather than the common 180 grain bullet at 975. “
 
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