Self defense while getting gas

Unfortunately, the gasoline debate has side tracked the thread.

Spraying gas or diesel on someone probably isn't going to be your best work but if the alternative is trusting myself to the mercy of a criminal I guess I'm going to go with the gas or maybe I can just run away

BUT

Since I can't remember the last time I left home unarmed (I looked, I had an appointment at the VA on the 26th) and I wouldn't go for gas unarmed it's not my only alternative.

I already said what I do at the gas station I'm not going to say it again but I will add that I make a point of looking around while gassing up. I turn a complete 360 at least a couple of times while I'm gassing up and I don't care if it's obvious that's what I'm doing. In fact I hope it is.

The buddy system seems like a very good way to minimize risk. Good on ya...

aaaaa said:

Well the one video was with diesel fuel, which is not such a fire hazard. But in America most use gasoline, which is. We need to convert to diesel I guess. Then we will have defensive guns that shoot slimy liquid all over the perps.

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Diesel is just as bad. Plus the diesel pump is pumping up to 4x the gpm of a gas one

even with halon, 2 trucks and a fleet of extinguisher you don't want to be there. Lol. It still can get away and everything be charcoal in minutes. Literally.... from nothing wrong to intense in under a minute .

Like I said, one duramax burned down an entire fire hall, even with a whole trained squad watching it start. One of our personal duramax burned a 4 Bay garage down in less than 5 minutes

I've burned brush and seen cotton/ wood/ rubber/ oil fires. Those are nothing. Im fire brigade in an industrial setting. You won't believe how fast gas or diesel will eat up anything in its way. Cars, trucks, people. Even on water. It's pretty insane. Only things worse are magnesium or some chemicals fire. That I've seen anyway.

I'm not worrying about the other guy. If I sprayed him then I wanted him gone or dead. Jury can decide the rest. But the odds of you lighting him without lighting yourself plus your vehicle, the puddle you made and the tank are slim

crestoncowboy said:

Diesel is just as bad. Plus the diesel pump is pumping up to 4x the gpm of a gas one

even with halon, 2 trucks and a fleet of extinguisher you don't want to be there. Lol. It still can get away and everything be charcoal in minutes. Literally.... from nothing wrong to intense in under a minute .

Like I said, one duramax burned down an entire fire hall, even with a whole trained squad watching it start. One of our personal duramax burned a 4 Bay garage down in less than 5 minutes

I've burned brush and seen cotton/ wood/ rubber/ oil fires. Those are nothing. Im fire brigade in an industrial setting. You won't believe how fast gas or diesel will eat up anything in its way. Cars, trucks, people. Even on water. It's pretty insane. Only things worse are magnesium or some chemicals fire. That I've seen anyway.

I'm not worrying about the other guy. If I sprayed him then I wanted him gone or dead. Jury can decide the rest. But the odds of you lighting him without lighting yourself plus your vehicle, the puddle you made and the tank are slim

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Unless there is some additive now in diesel fuel, it should not be near as volatile as gasoline. In neither case would I recommend lighting a match, but it is going to take more to ignite diesel than gasoline. If only Ford had figured that out when all the Crown Vic cop cars were exploding upon rear impact. Diesel might have saved some cop's lives.

Night Rider said:

Unfortunately, the gasoline debate has side tracked the thread........

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Yep, a few shared their thoughts on the OP.

Dr T said:

.....I do want to explain the rationale for my selection of the Black Widow......Life is full of compromises. This should partially explain my selection of a pea shooter.

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It looks as if the poster is content with what he is doing so I would imagine further "thoughts" will be of no benefit to him since the other "thoughts" expressed were not useful.

Kleanbore said:

The legal issue on that would be one of whether you had used no mor force than was necessary.

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If four guys are shooting at you, and especially if you don't have a firearm (for example you are in a jurisdiction that does not give carry permits), it's hard to imagine being dinged for using "more force than necessary".

If four men armed with knives are sprinting up to you…contemplating their unfortunate childhood life experiences, the prevailing criminal justice system, or flammability of fuel in current weather conditions…is a decidedly non-Strategic, Tactics, and Training approach. Goal should be survival.

I consistently pull-through to the front pump so that no other vehicles are in front of me.
Once fuel gauge indicates a half-tank that puts me on the search. I avoid being totally empty.

Pumps with the advertising video screens are definitely avoided. They mask sounds. Preference is for pumps that activate via "tap" credit cards. Pocket the CC immediately in case a rapid departure is needed.

There have been a couple times that my shirt accidentally rode up and exposed the grip of my pistol at a gas station.
Both times were in the fore-part of the morning when most decent working people are in their beds.
Like my dad always told me....'nothing good happens after midnight'.

Kleanbore said:

"…So, whether such a result would impact the reasonableness requirement, constitute a failure to exercise due caution in the use of a dangerous device, or simply constitute evidence creating a basis for reasonable doubt, the result would probably lead to a manslaughter charge. And it should…"

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The four armed men, lying in wait, all to ambush an innocent motorist will make the "reasonable" part easy. He simply doused them in fuel with the very pump he was reasonably holding in his hand at the very moment of the frightening surprise attack. There is no indication whatsoever he wished them set aflame.

Kleanbore said:

"…I seriously doubt it…"

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The ostensibly unarmed motorist arrived to purchase fuel. Four predators immediately attacked.
He reacted with the legal product he was in the midst of legally transferring to his vehicle.
What ELSE would he be doing while his hand grasped the pump handle? This is the epitome of reasonable.

Kleanbore said:

"…Do you know the definition of involuntary manslaughter?…"

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Nobody got killed or even injured. The thugs seemingly fled with wet clothes doused in stinky fuel.
WHY do you keep pushing the "manslaughter" notion when absolutely nothing of the sort happened?

Kleanbore said:

I seriously doubt it.

Doesn't matter at all. Do you know the definition of involuntary manslaughter?

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This thread needs to be carjacked.

Blue Jays said:

The four armed men, lying in wait, all to ambush an innocent motorist will make the "reasonable" part easy. He simply doused them in fuel with the very pump he was reasonably holding in his hand at the very moment of the frightening surprise attack. There is no indication whatsoever he wished them set aflame.

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Thousands of cars burn down every year. Nobody wished to set them aflame. Ive seen 2 people burned to death in their car from static igniting full fuel jugs. They never wished to set themselves on fire. The odds of you setting someone on fire by spraying 10 GPM of gasoline into open air is really not that low. Static, flame, anything. He drops his knife and it sparks. He fires..... you drop the nozzle to get away and it sparks. I can't imagine that the guy holding the hose isn't burned badly or to death plus his vehicle and possibly any kids strapped in. Ive saw that as well. Ive seen these fires. Vehicles get so hot they melt in little time.

I don't care about lighting the guy trying to harm me. But id rather not burn to death. Ive seen it. It's not pretty. One state trooper told us years ago that a car crash victim was burning in his car in a pin in. He begged the Trooper to shoot him. Until the day the Trooper died he never forgot that crash .

Ive had gas from a burning vehicle get on me and ignite. My BDU pants kept the fire out and didn't melt to me. The heat was so intense on my leg that all the hair burned off. My polyester based tank top melted and burned me a bit on my side and arm. This was me under full control and no life's in danger. No panic and alert enough to get the fire out within 10 seconds. Having seen several fuel fires i have a far more healthy fear of it than I did. I work in buildings that have automatic for suppression. Argus and halon dumps etc. If you aren't out within a few seconds if the siren and lights you are sealed in and the oxygen removed from the room. Fuel fires (which lead to chemical and rubber fires) still scare me more than the others. The speed and intensity and difficulty of getting them down, much less out, is impressive.

That's where the manslaughter is coming in. And not many thug would just run from gas imo. They get shot and keep coming. The range of the hose means he is already on you or it wouldn't reach him. And at that point you are on a puddle of gas with an angry (or several angry) criminal. Best case scenario you end up getting in your vehicle half covered in gas yourself. Will you cause static spark getting in the seat. Turning the key? Etc etc. Worst case is a scene from zoolander. Lol

@crestoncowboy…these are precisely why criminals should avoid traveling armed in predatory packs. In the event anything unfortunate potentially occurred they should be held completely liable. All should be equally culpable…from the mastermind, to the assailant nearest the motorist, to the getaway driver. It's on them.

Blue Jays said:

@crestoncowboy…these are precisely why criminals should avoid traveling armed in predatory packs. In the event anything unfortunate potentially occurred they should be held completely liable. All should be equally culpable…from the mastermind, to the assailant nearest the motorist, to the getaway driver. It's on them.

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Doesn't work that way though. Safety for them in numbers. And rarely is the actual assailant punished. Much less his help.

I don't worry getting gas. And I drive some old vehicles that get single digit mileage. And anyone can do what they wish. I'm just pointing out how easily gas can get out of hand. If a vehicle can burn down an entire fire hall that has trained full time fire fighters all around...... it's not just like a brush fire. And I'm the idiot who has got away with smoking while sitting on his bikes and quads while fueling in the past.....having seen a few go up, I have more respect now.

And at 5 dollars a gallon who can afford to use it as a defensive tool. Ammo and primers would be cheaper.

Kleanbore said:

Well, deadly force is deadly force. but a man on fire can ignite others or a lot of property or both.

So, whether such a result would impact the reasonableness requirement, constitute a failure to exercise due caution in the use of a dangerous device, or simply constitute evidence creating a basis for reasonable doubt, the result would probably lead to a manslaughter charge. And it should.

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The law isn't what's in the law books, the law is in how the judge interprets what's in the law books when the case goes to trial.

So until this actually happens and somebody's actually doused with gasoline, set on fire and causes injury to an innocent all we really have is speculation.

This discussion has been totally derailed.

Getting carjacked or mugged or panhandled at a gas station is a daily occurrence in America. I would bet that it happens hundreds of times a day in CONUS.

Gas Stations/Convenience Stores are what all the SMEs call "Watering Holes". If you ever watch National Geographic TV they always show the Lions hanging out at watering holes because they know that sooner or later the antelopes have to come and get a drink.

I guess that makes the crackheads alligators because they live in the watering holes.

But anyway a gas station or convenience store is very potentially a high-threat environment . So, even if your individual odds are low (but they get higher over time) it's probably a good idea to have a plan to mimize your exposure.

Kleanbore said:

The judge delivers the jury instructions, but he does not write them.
There is nothing speculative about negligence and involuntary manslaughter.

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This spraying gasoline on people thing has totally derailed the thread. I'm not making any further comments regarding it one way or the other.

Kleanbore said:

It was a bad idea in the first place.

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If you want the last word, have at it

Kleanbore said:

"…It was a bad idea in the first place…"

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Not according to noted expert John Correia of Active Self Protection (ASP) who supported the motorist reacting quickly to save his own life under very difficult conditions.