Medicare/Old Age Self Defense

[Shadow 7D]

OK
so for those of you who missed government class

use of CHEMICAL WEAPONS is a federal issue,
the whole self defense thing is local

two NOT the same governments at work here, the use of wasp spray on a HUMAN is in violations of many accords and treaties that the US is party to.

NOW, the use of OC and teargas are *kinda* ok under it as they are classed riot agents etc and not deadly, but also fall under chemical weapons and some would like to argue that they too should be outlawed under international law. So, yeah, the UN IS reaching into your home and taking your can of bug spray. Personally I wouldn't care to try to explain it to the jury, might be ok if it's the only thing in the kitchen in reach (I can thing of other things I'd use first) but Naw, I'll pass and use the things that a jury won't blink an eye at like a tazer or OC.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Shadow 7D: Personally I wouldn't care to try to explain it [(having used wasp spray on human being)] to the jury, might be ok if it's the only thing in the kitchen in reach (I can thing of other things I'd use first) but Naw, I'll pass and use the things that a jury won't blink an eye at like a tazer or OC.

The thing is, the defendant may well not even get a chance to explain his or reasons to a jury in the Federal District Court.

In the local court case in which the defendant claims self defense, a defendant who has provided at least some evidence on each of the elements of justification can expect a favorable jury instruction that would permit the jury to consider whether the use of force had been justified.

The Federal law in question has no provision for a defense of justification of any kind, and as things stand today, there is no case law to help out.

 

[theicemanmpls]

The thing is, the defendant may well not even get a chance to explain his or reasons to a jury in the Federal District Court.

In the local court case in which the defendant claims self defense, a defendant who has provided at least some evidence on each of the elements of justification can expect a favorable jury instruction that would permit the jury to consider whether the use of force had been justified.

The Federal law in question has no provision for a defense of justification of any kind, and as things stand today, there is no case law to help out.

Kleenbore,
Are you saying that if a 87 year old great, grandmother sprays wasp spray in the face of a home invader, after the local jurisdiction has decided this was a justified use of force, the feds are going to step in, and haul granny into federal criminal court?

The reason I ask, is many senior educators were advising their clients to use bug spray to defeat attackers.

The only case is the one that came up here, that of Carol Bond. Carol used industrial chemicals stolen from her employer, a chemical manufacturing company. Further, Carol used the white stuff in attempted murder.

Yes, there is the warning label on the can, and yes their is the terrorist laws, and the treaty against chemical attacks among countries.

Yes, I agree, the feds can do what ever they want in bringing charges.

But, will they really put a senior citizen in federal lockup for a clear cut case of self-defense?

I think not.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

"The thing is, the defendant may well not even get a chance to explain his or reasons to a jury in the Federal District Court."

If this is true (and probably is, ) then we live under tyranny. Plain and simple. When "guilt" cannot be measured by the reasons an act was committed, then it is not justice. There are very few laws in existence that should be a black-and-white "you did it so you go to jail" situation. If someone isn't even allowed to explain what they did and why, we might as well live in the Soviet Union.

I'm not arguing here with the truth of Kleanbore's statements. I simply believe that the truth shows something very very unappealing about our Federal justice system.

 

[JRH6856]

I simply believe that the truth shows something very very unappealing about our Federal justice system.

+1!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by theicemanmpls: Are you saying that if a 87 year old great, grandmother sprays wasp spray in the face of a home invader, after the local jurisdiction has decided this was a justified use of force, the feds are going to step in, and haul granny into federal criminal court?

No. I am saying that the law provides for them to do so and that they may do so.

The reason I ask, is many senior educators were advising their clients to use bug spray to defeat attackers.

It is extremely unfortunate that such ignorant and irresponsible advice is being put forth.

But, will they really put a senior citizen in federal lockup for a clear cut case of self-defense?

One cannot say, but since a claim of self defense would not be relevant in the Federal case, there is no reason to believe that a claim of self defense would enter into anything other than (1) the decision of the Assistant United States Attorney on whether to prosecute, or (2) the ultimate sentence, at which point the defendant would have undergone extreme expense and hardship over an extended period of time even if the sentence were minimal or involved probation.

I think not.

It is evident that you believe that you have some insight into the workings of the Federal justice system.

Do you have a basis for your belief?

I think not.

Keep in mind two things:

1. Lee Lapin's statement "Anything anyone here does, either because of or contrary to anything said in ST&T, is their sole individual responsibility. Any member here is always acting completely independently and assumes full liability for the consequences of their actions".
   
2. The fact that the Federal law prohibits more that the actual usage of chemical agents; the threat of same, and acquiring, receiving, retaining, owning, and possessing such agent for unlawful purposes are also prohibited.

Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by crazyjennyblack: When "guilt" cannot be measured by the reasons an act was committed, then it is not justice.

I certainly agree with that.

There are very few laws in existence that should be a black-and-white "you did it so you go to jail" situation.

Not so sure. There are many Federal laws, and many Federal regulations with the force of law that impose criminal penalties, that are so written.

 

[JRH6856]

There are many Federal laws, and many Federal regulations with the force of law that impose criminal penalties, that are so written.

Certainly, there are, but should there be?

 

[Bovice]

This thread was a real eye-opener to read. Very good information. It is stuff I hadn't considered, I have always thought that I would just use whatever I could find handy for a weapon if I needed one.

 

[blindhari]

Lot of advice here but some of it seems to somehow be off to the side of self defense in my situation.
As I age, weight and punishment of firearm in carry and on the range is becoming a difficulty. My normal carry, not my home defense has been a pair of Jframe snubs in custom vests made made by a guy here in town. My jframes weigh 20+oz each with shells in, NAA mini weighs a pound less than packing 2 Jframes around. Thread I was refering to here in THR was on NAA vs knives. I am still going to carry one 38, what I am giving up is the New York reload. NAA is a backup and I will hide it in plain sight. I have had a holster made that looks like an eyeglass case out of tooled leather. It is set to hold NAA upright on the crossdraw sideand upside down on the strong side. This threads onto a belt and rides horizontal on the belt, It also has a zip compartment with 10 spare rounds. Closure on the case flap is positive with thumb strap.
Layered defense;
1 Leave the area
2 38 sp
3 leave the area
4 cane from Brazos Walking Stick
5 Leave the area
6 NAA Mini
7 Leave the area
8 pocket knife
9 leave the area

Last month my wife handed me $40 as we were walking out of Walmart. As we got to the car a couple in thier 30s wlked up to us with the male going on behind me. Lady started to panhadle my wife with the guy out of view behind me. I said no loudly and took her picture with my cell phone at he same time telling her she was already in my computer at home. The male and then the female turned and ran to a pickup and left in a hurry. Loud voice and cell are mere threats at my age, but my wife was looking past me and said the guy was already leaving when he realised the vest was flared open and he could see I had a hand in the inside pocket. Up until now I have had a 38 to back up a 38. I cannot see carrying a can of bugspray. Before I retired I checked out a can of dogspray, oil of capscium, every day I hit the street, it was not that effective. At home in an enviorment we control, we feel much safer.
It is impossible to be vigilant 24/7, it is impossible to plan for everything, what I have done is try to recognise physical limitaions as I age and cover what I can, disregarding what I can no longer do.

blindhari

 

[aaronu]

Knife vs. NAA -- in your case I'd go with the NAA.

You mentioned earlier that it's a magnum frame. Are you loading magnum shells in it?

 

[JRH6856]

Last month my wife handed me $40 as we were walking out of Walmart.

Try to avoid handling cash in public view (unless actually making a purchase).

 

[alsaqr]

About 30 years ago in WV i taught self defense as a part of rape prevention. One day i got a call from a deputy sheriff in the southern part of WV. The deputy said something like: "I wanted to talk with the guy who taught ladies to spray their attackers with Easy Off oven cleaner. The other day MS....... was attacked in her home. She sprayed the guy real good with Easy Off: He's blind in one eye and his face and neck are badly burned."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by alsaqr: About 30 years ago in WV i ....

Overtaken by events.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Lot of advice here but some of it seems to somehow be off to the side of self defense in my situation.
As I age, weight and punishment of firearm in carry and on the range is becoming a difficulty. My normal carry, not my home defense has been a pair of Jframe snubs in custom vests made made by a guy here in town. My jframes weigh 20+oz each with shells in, NAA mini weighs a pound less than packing 2 Jframes around. Thread I was refering to here in THR was on NAA vs knives. I am still going to carry one 38, what I am giving up is the New York reload. NAA is a backup and I will hide it in plain sight. I have had a holster made that looks like an eyeglass case out of tooled leather. It is set to hold NAA upright on the crossdraw sideand upside down on the strong side. This threads onto a belt and rides horizontal on the belt, It also has a zip compartment with 10 spare rounds. Closure on the case flap is positive with thumb strap.
Layered defense;
1 Leave the area
2 38 sp
3 leave the area
4 cane from Brazos Walking Stick
5 Leave the area
6 NAA Mini
7 Leave the area
8 pocket knife
9 leave the area

Last month my wife handed me $40 as we were walking out of Walmart. As we got to the car a couple in thier 30s wlked up to us with the male going on behind me. Lady started to panhadle my wife with the guy out of view behind me. I said no loudly and took her picture with my cell phone at he same time telling her she was already in my computer at home. The male and then the female turned and ran to a pickup and left in a hurry. Loud voice and cell are mere threats at my age, but my wife was looking past me and said the guy was already leaving when he realised the vest was flared open and he could see I had a hand in the inside pocket. Up until now I have had a 38 to back up a 38. I cannot see carrying a can of bugspray. Before I retired I checked out a can of dogspray, oil of capscium, every day I hit the street, it was not that effective. At home in an enviorment we control, we feel much safer.
It is impossible to be vigilant 24/7, it is impossible to plan for everything, what I have done is try to recognise physical limitaions as I age and cover what I can, disregarding what I can no longer do.

blindhari

Walmarts parking lots, and even inside Walmarts are known for muggings.

As this poster indicated, a .38 beats a can of anything, anytime. Money should not be displayed in public. Like anything sweet, it attracts pests.

This poster brings up an interesting subject. I find nothing wrong with what he carries, but if one has a stick, and a gun,IMO, it may open up the continuum of force application.
1 Leave the area
2 38 sp
3 leave the area
4 cane from Brazos Walking Stick
5 Leave the area
6 NAA Mini
7 Leave the area
8 pocket knife
9 leave the area

If the bad guy pulls out a knife, do you run, wack him with the stick, stab, shoot with mini, or start blasting with the .38's? Having all that gear gives the victim choices. What I was trained to do was, steer clear of trouble areas, leave the area if it turns bad, if approached, make sure you are yelling at the attacker to stop. This may slow down/stop the attack, and it may give you all important wittiness testimony to the assault.

It is my understanding of meeting force with force, is deadly weapon used by perp, brings out deadly weapon by victim.

Trouble is with a knife or stick, unless used by an expert, it can be used against the victim.

When I go for a walk, I have a walking stick, and a firearm. I reserve the stick for dogs. If people that concern me are around, I keep my gun hand free. One must also remember that when packing concealed, sometimes, two hands are needed to bring the firearm to bear. The stick may end up on the ground.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

 

[Hangingrock]

I believe that ones mental and physical abilities determine how one reacts to and controls a situation with in reason. I’ve seen people in their forties and fifties that are physical and mental wrecks. I question the implication that all of an age group are not capable of defending oneself in their example sixth and seventh decades. Can it be problematic yes but not impossible.