Defense against an active shooter
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Old Dog
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In some quarters, accusing one of acquiring his knowledge on Wikipedia could be considered an insult. I've actually read all the police reports on Maldonado's caper. This kind of happened in my neighborhood and I know (knew) several of the responding emergency personnel. In any event, I'll let you be right, and you can even have the last word, I won't post any more in this thread.
Some are using arguments against getting involved in an active shooter situation that are remarkably close to the same arguments gun-control supporters use against the notion of concealed carry.
And others -- all unarmed -- jumped in, subdued the gunman (who was armed with two guns) and had the wherewithal to hogtie the guy with an extension cord. Doubtful that an Orange County Presbyterian church will let members of its congregation be armed -- and virtually no one gets issued a CCW license in that country, either.
stanley_white
Member
A very smart person I know once told me “Sheep Dogs protect sheep. I ain’t that. I am a Wolf, and wolves protect the pack, which in my case is my immediate family.”
-Stan
-Stan
bdickens
Member
Your best line of defense against an active shooter is a good pair of shoes....
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Never leave mom's basement. Shop online and let the postman bring your stuph.
More reaslistically, decades ago I was taught that when you enter a place, first thing you do is figure out the exits in case you must bail. Second thing is to identify cover along the way as you shop (we did this on patrol).
More reaslistically, decades ago I was taught that when you enter a place, first thing you do is figure out the exits in case you must bail. Second thing is to identify cover along the way as you shop (we did this on patrol).
Old Dog
Member
Mom does make the best PBJ sandwiches, and it's so exciting to watch the brown truck or the blue smiley truck coming down the drive...
Key advice. Danger in, danger out. Identify the potential "fatal funnel" but also note behavior of potential bad people -- the shooter in the Geneva Presbyterian Church attempted chain the doors from the inside and put super-glue in the keyholes -- not the first time mass shooters have attempted to secure egress points. Dr. Cheng's heroism, as well the other members of the congregation, cannot be overstated nor go unrecognized.
I’ve got no problem with heroism. My problem is with advocating that someone tries to be a hero or that he has some obligation to because he’s carrying a gun. It’s a decision that everyone will have to make for himself if ever confronted with the situation. Comments on the order of: “How could anyone who was armed and didn’t act live with themselves?” Only serve to encourage people to jump into something they can’t handle. Few private citizens train regularly and many don’t have access to the training professionals do. Even among professionals there is a significant number who view carrying a weapon and training as a distasteful part of the job. And we’re not even factoring plain old luck, karma or whatever into it. Luck has killed plenty of the best trained people we have.
Old Dog
Member
Respectfully, Jeff, I don't think we're seeing anyone in this thread advocating that anyone has an obligation to intervene in an active shooter situation solely because "he's carrying a gun." Rather, I'm seeing people state their personal feelings as to their own beliefs (their own obligations prioritized, i.e., family, self, strangers...) As I've noted early and often in this (and other) thread(s), everyone who choses the responsibility of carrying a firearm not only should avail themselves of as much training as they possible can, but maintain a realistic self-assessment as to their physical limitations and firearms skills.
As a former agency instructor, there'd be times we look at the rosters for upcoming qual classes and dread the thought of dealing with these "professionals" on their range days as much as they dreaded going to the range... Every member of every police/sheriff's department knows exactly who these folks are, and it will most certainly factor in what you're thinking when responding to a serious call with regard to just who your back-up is going to be.
Vern Humphrey
Member
If the shooter is wearing soft body armor, shoot for the unarmored portions of the body. You may well slow him down -- and he'll leave a blood trail for the cops to follow.
It's come up in plenty of other threads on this and other topics like being in the convenience store when the armed robbers drop in. I always like to get that statement in before it gets started, people get their feelings hurt, flame wars start, the thread gets looked and someone gets banned. It's simply a housekeeping statement based on my experience moderating this forum since the start.
Old Dog
Member
Copy that.
James Collins
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I think some people come in trying to gas light so glad you clean it up
herrwalther
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My sole role in an active shooter situation is to get me and mine out of the area. I do not subscribe to the "sheepdog" mentality of seeking out a shooter just because I am armed. I spent my years in that role and it is not my job anymore. If I can safely get more people out of the way and safe while securing my own family, I will do so.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It seems so easy, in theory. First, you have to identify that he has on armor. Aaron Salter, Jr. and Mark Wilson were not able to accomplish this task in a timely enough manner before being killed. After that, you then have to correctly fire at the unarmored parts on a target that is likely in motion while still being sure not to hit bystanders.
armoredman
Member
When I knew certain staff members were coming to range day, I wore body armor. No joke. We carry guns a LOT less than street LE, but we still qualify every year.
What will I do in this situation? I don't know. I wargame it in my head when I walk in, exit this way, etc., and after 20 years inside the wire I think I have a handle on "unusual behavior" from many people that might signal bad intent. Then again, I'm shopping - I am probably concentrating on things like do they HAVE green onions today, and where did they hide the dadgum somen noodles this time? But in the incredibly rare event that something like this happened in my area, and the even more unlikely chance I am there and not with wife/child, (both also carry and are quite good with their chosen side arms), then I will have to evaluate my options very, very quickly. I have not faced this elephant before and pray I will never do so this side of the grave.
James Collins
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We watched this video at work called run hide fight. Not sure how realistic some of that was
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Going back to my earlier statement about law enforcement getting their noses effectively bloodied, post #41, we see this happen again with the Uvalde school shooting. An SRO encounters the shooter and attempts to stop him (information still seems vague on this) and then two cops show up and the shooter engages them from inside the school (detail still murky) but one or more of the 3 cops so far get injured. What happens when the rest of the cops show up? They staged, prepared, and planned. The shooter was inside the school with virtually free reign for 40 or more minutes until cops made entry anew, a tactical team from the Border Patrol had time to arrive and get their act together for the assault on the shooter. All the while, people outside the school were yelling at the cops to make entry.
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683
Sadly, law enforcement seems quite proud of their response to Uvalde.
“The bottom line is law enforcement was there,” McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-s...as-shootings-56a4d01fb1cda19947db89fcb6bd85fd
Yep, they were there, did engage briefly (like Columbine) and then waited outside while the shooter actively killed all those people. Good to know that law enforcement was there.
Law enforcement are just people. They want to go home at the end of their shifts like everyone else. However, surround and contain is pre-Columbine active shooter doctrine, but this is reality, again, where the cops may be 'there' but aren't in a hurry to actually perform despite what the current doctrine may be. These are limited examples and there have been numerous times when cops take a more active role in squashing active shooters and they should be wholeheartedly applauded. The problem is, you don't know in that sort of situation if the cops are going to try to save you or not.
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-44a7cfb990feaa6ffe482483df6e4683
Sadly, law enforcement seems quite proud of their response to Uvalde.
“The bottom line is law enforcement was there,” McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-s...as-shootings-56a4d01fb1cda19947db89fcb6bd85fd
Yep, they were there, did engage briefly (like Columbine) and then waited outside while the shooter actively killed all those people. Good to know that law enforcement was there.
Law enforcement are just people. They want to go home at the end of their shifts like everyone else. However, surround and contain is pre-Columbine active shooter doctrine, but this is reality, again, where the cops may be 'there' but aren't in a hurry to actually perform despite what the current doctrine may be. These are limited examples and there have been numerous times when cops take a more active role in squashing active shooters and they should be wholeheartedly applauded. The problem is, you don't know in that sort of situation if the cops are going to try to save you or not.
Choctaw
Member
Exactly. Why not just shoot the gun out of his hand? lol
Old Dog
Member
It will certainly be interesting if the law enforcement response to the Uvalde incident becomes a major issue. Regardless, as far as the politicians and media are concerned, it's the fault of the guns.
It is telling that one of the major media outlets claims that Buffalo and Uvalde give lie to the NRA's position that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
It is telling that one of the major media outlets claims that Buffalo and Uvalde give lie to the NRA's position that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
I'm interested to see that as well. The average cop doesn't have a fraction of the training needed to solve that problem if the shooter barricades himself. A single officer is basically committing suicide by going through the door alone against a shooter who knows he's coming. Officers need more training on how to breach doors as a team and be provided with the tools necessary to increase their chances, ie shields, flashbangs etc.
Part of me wonders if the officers hesitated due to fear, inexperience, or bad training, or if they were concerned that the active shooter had turned into a hostage scenario. Once the shooting stops and it becomes a hostage scenario things change dramatically. Do you force your way in and risk him killing the kids inside, or do you evacuate casualties and wait for a tactical team and a negotiator? Running to the gunfire is the right response for when the shooter is shooting but what about when it goes quiet?
We need more information before we can pass judgement on if the right or wrong call was made.
Law enforcement needs much more training and tools for how to handle these situations.
Schools should have adequate security ie armed guards, cameras that are accessible by dispatch so officers can have good information while enroute, controlled access points, windows that open from the inside but not the outside, and training for both teachers and students alike on how to appropriately respond.
The good guy with a gun mantra (so poorly phrased by the silver tongued WLP) is being scoffed at by most opinion writers and 'experts' in the 'field'. The instances of successful citizen defense are not mentioned.
However, I will comment that most carriers don't train one darn bit and if you don't, I really think you don't add to the debate of civilian interaction in an intense critical incident. Need to step up to the plate if you make the claim that you are going to help.
However, I will comment that most carriers don't train one darn bit and if you don't, I really think you don't add to the debate of civilian interaction in an intense critical incident. Need to step up to the plate if you make the claim that you are going to help.
bdickens
Member
People need to train both hard skills as well as prepare themselves mentally for the horror they will encounter on scene. Imagine responding to a school where there are dead children who've been shot right in the face and others are laying around screaming and covered in blood. How do you predict how you will react? The average American has never seen a body that resulted from violent death and even law enforcement who have seen it often rarely see dead children.
People gotta get into the right headspace for dealing with that as well as dealing with the fact that the killer most likely will be another child that you will have to shoot.
Can you walk past a wounded child who will most likely bleed out or do you press forward toward the threat?
The idea of rushing in and taking out the shooter sounds simple but it really isn't unless you have prepared with alot of mindset and physical training. Law enforcement and armed citizens alike need to really step it up because luck has nothing to do with it.
People gotta get into the right headspace for dealing with that as well as dealing with the fact that the killer most likely will be another child that you will have to shoot.
Can you walk past a wounded child who will most likely bleed out or do you press forward toward the threat?
The idea of rushing in and taking out the shooter sounds simple but it really isn't unless you have prepared with alot of mindset and physical training. Law enforcement and armed citizens alike need to really step it up because luck has nothing to do with it.
Good points but it's always easier to talk about your new gun and stopping power rather than issues you raise. I never could get a set of TX friends who were all about guns to train or compete. At best, they would go to the square range or shoot at rocks at the 'ranch'.
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