Defense against an active shooter

[Master Blaster]

Yesterday there was a tragic shooting of innocent people by an assailant wearing body armor.

An armed security guard used his pistol and was unable to stop the attacker and was killed.

Given that these incidents are on the rise and a shotgun might be more effective against an armored attacker at close range (less than 50 feet).

Would it be better for security to carry shotguns loaded with buckshot, or are the optics too bad and risk of hitting bystanders too great?

 

[Speedo66]

I think most incidents involving security guards tend to have them putting their hands on people to contain or prevent escape. Having to carry a long gun would probably be a hardship.

I think buckshot is also too imprecise in a situation like that.

From what I've read the security guard was a retired officer.

 

[GBExpat]

... Would it be better for security to carry shotguns loaded with buckshot ...

For use in a venue potentially loaded with innocents? No, I think not.

 

[AK Hunter]

No a shotgun will endanger too many other shoppers. The best defense against an active shooter is to be alert, keep your head on a swivel & be aware of were the exit is or where cover can be found.
The best thing for the armed security guard is the practice head shots. The only way this people hunting is going to stop is to have enough guns out there that when the shooter pulls the trigger, the hail of gun fire back at him drops him instantly.

 

[shafter]

Shotguns are a bad idea and so is a hail of gunfire from multiple people. What's needed is for someone to quickly close the gap to a distance where they can fire a shot that stops the threat without harming anyone else. This isn't going to be easy in a crowded environment where everyone is moving including the shooter.

 

[starnbar]

Shooting in a confined area full of civilians is gonna incur collateral damage your call

 

[WrongHanded]

Shotgun? No. Better tactics? Yes.

At one of my local grocery stores, there's often a security guard armed with a pistol, standing in an entry way between 4 different doorways. No armor, threat arc is over 200 degrees, he could even be hit from a vehicle through either exterior doorway and never know there was a shooter.

As far as I can tell, that guy's job is to be the first person shot. And it seems many security guards are also told to stand in stupid indefensible places.

 

[Jeff White]

Shotguns are not effective against body armor. If you want to have effective security you are going to have to completely change the private security industry and those changes would be too costly. I don't see Walmart or any other retail establishment paying for the kind of trained and selected personnel that we hire to guard nuclear facilities. 99.99% of private security is eyewash.

 

[Scrapiron45]

I would guess that the increased availability of body armor will make this a more common problem for security, police, and possibly home defense. While most defensive shooting focuses on center mass chest area, I've been taught that below waistline shots, while not considered as often fatal can still be good stoppers because of lower spinal, hip, pelvis, and femoral artery concerns. Head shots are optimal but obviously you have to deal with a smaller target and the possibility of stray rounds traveling farther due to elevation. A hard call to make in 3 seconds.

 

[GEM]

There's quite a debate on the failure to stop drills between head shots and lower body shots. Both have a lower probability of a stop. The lower body shots don't have easier targets to effect a quick stop and immobilization also takes some precision. There's no easy answer. Yes, practice failure to stop drills. Will we see more body armor - probably. The publicity about the successful use of such by this guy will inform others for the next time.

 

[CDW4ME]

Rather than ponder what weapon might be best for a security guard...
I think more people carrying a handgun they can shoot well in a caliber with decent potential to stop a threat ASAP (like 9mm minimum) increases the chance of stopping the psycho before they can shoot/injure/kill multiple people.
And... a shooter wearing body armor might be rendered immobile with hits to pelvic / groin area - again, 9mm or more has better potential to accomplish that.

 

[edwardware]

As far as I can tell, that guy's job is to be the first person shot.

It's worse actually. His job is to engender a feeling of safety in the sort of person who refuses to user their minds to think.

It's security theatre.

 

[jeepnik]

Rather than ponder what weapon might be best for a security guard...
I think more people carrying a handgun they can shoot well in a caliber with decent potential to stop a threat ASAP (like 9mm minimum) increases the chance of stopping the psycho before they can shoot/injure/kill multiple people.
And... a shooter wearing body armor might be rendered immobile with hits to pelvic / groin area - again, 9mm or more has better potential to accomplish that.

Ahh, but anything a 9mm can do a .40 or .45 can do better.

 

[Speedo66]

There may be laws out there now at this point is some states, but I think we will see more legislation either banning use of body armor by citizens or increased jail time based on use in a crime.

May be a race to be first as so many other laws have been when something hits the news. Politicians just can't help themselves, "look at me, I'm tough on crime".

 

[Jeff White]

The only realistic solution to an active shooter wearing body armor is not available nor practical for the general public in most places. That’s to carry a rifle.

The second this thread degenerates into a caliber discussion or completely unrealistic tactics for an armed citizen not already involved to engage the active shooter it’s done! We’ve gone down those roads plenty of times here, you are free to use the search function and revisit them. Most of them were closed after they got heated.

The best defense against an active shooter who is naked or covered head to toe in armor is to get out of the area.

 

[Rexster]

Regarding security guards being armed with shotguns, well, anyone using a shotgun against an active shooter had best know how the shotgun patterns, and know its maximum effective range, with the ammunition that is actually inside the magazine tube. REALLY know. If applicable, one should show where a favored slug shoots, in relation to the sights. There are people who can REALLY run a shotgun, but, I doubt that most supermarkets would be willing to pay what such a “security guard” would cost.

A tremendous problem, with an active shooter, inside a large supermarket, is the potential engagement distance. A shotgun-armed security guard might find himself unable to effectively engage, while the offender might well be able to effectively hit the security guard. Really, for engaging a rifle-armed “active shooter,” any responder is probably best-served by a rifle.

 

[JohnKSa]

I've been taught that below waistline shots, while not considered as often fatal can still be good stoppers because of lower spinal, hip, pelvis, and femoral artery concerns.

Great for someone with a contact weapon. For someone with a firearm, it may limit their mobility, but it won't stop them from shooting back for the several minutes it takes them to bleed out.

Unless you can somehow get up close without being noticed, or unless you can make headshots quickly, while under fire at distances out to 20 yards or more, you're probably going to get killed if you engage someone with a rifle and body armor. Like Mark Wilson in Tyler.

Ahh, but anything a 9mm can do a .40 or .45 can do better.

Any body armor that will stop any of those calibers will stop all of them. A headshot with any of those calibers will get the same result regardless of which caliber is used. What is needed in this kind of scenario is:

1. Very good tactics and/or luck. If you can get close without being noticed, you have a chance.
2. Really amazing accuracy with a pistol or decent accuracy with a long gun and/or luck. Shots will need to be placed precisely.

 

[Blue Jays]

My amateur theory is many grocery shoppers might be inclined not to "break the rules" even during precarious and life-threatening situations. One needs to be mentally-tuned to depart through the back of the deli counter, via the bakery department, through the stock/warehouse area, the garbage exit, or wherever.

If escape is impossible…effective concealment/hiding is essential.

 

[WrongHanded]

What is needed in this kind of scenario is:

1. Very good tactics and/or luck. If you can get close without being noticed, you have a chance.
2. Really amazing accuracy with a pistol or decent accuracy with a long gun and/or luck. Shots will need to be placed precisely.

That sums it up nicely.

I personally don't think I have any real chance against an armored attacker with equal or superior firepower if they are attacking me directly. All I think I could do is move quickly out of the way and into cover, then repeat until I'm no longer a target.

The one thing I think I could do, is stop (or at least distract) a threat that was targeting others who were located at a different compass point than myself (from the shooter's perspective). And that's a tricky one. Would I be willing to attempt a headshot and possibly miss, hitting someone else? Would I be willing to draw the shooter's fire towards myself? Would I be willing to be misidentified as the active shooter by the police or another armed citizen, if they happened to show up right then? Would I be willing to stealthily leave the area whilst others were being murdered?

I just don't know.

 

[Artg56]

Very tough situation having a active shooter in a crowded environment, I would agree with getting yourself and as many near you under cover/fleeing the area without engaging unless you are already under cover and 100% sure that there was nobody behind the shooter in your line of fire.

 

[toivo]

I don't see Walmart or any other retail establishment paying for the kind of trained and selected personnel that we hire to guard nuclear facilities.

Very true. A guy in my gun club was a security guard at a nuke plant. Those guys TRAIN. He said he had to qualify monthly on rifle and handgun. He retired early -- said the actual job wasn't too hard, but the training was wearing him out as he got older.

 

[hoodfu]

To sum up from the video, this guy got out of the car and started firing shots immediately with an AR. 3 people were dead within 5-10 seconds. He then approached the front door of the grocery store, and was receiving rounds through the window from the guard. Supposedly his armor stopped what was fired at him. He fired a series of shots through the window taking out the guard and some of the people inside. He proceeded inside and executed the people who were already shot or had gone to the ground with shots to the head.

The reality is that if an armored up AR wielding guy shows up at the grocery store out of the blue, the chances of someone taking him out right then and there aren't good. He's seriously overmatched compared to his opponents. I don't think it's useful to try to plan for insanity because 1, it's extremely rare that you'd be in this situation. 2, you'd have to be in the right physical place and mental mindsight to take a life, and 3, you'd have to have amazing aim with the adrenaline pumping. Yes some people have done it, but it's chances aren't in your favor against this kind of threat.

It's worth noting from the video that he was in the perfect mindset for this. Other than the last guy who he didn't shoot, he didn't hesitate to put many accurate rounds (headshots) onto many targets extremely quickly. Trying to stop that kind of armored threat with a concealed carry pistol is really going to be stacked against you.

 

[N555]

For an active shooter, run.
Only shoot at them if they trap you, which could be part of their design.
As the last guy showed the only resistance he planned on until the cops show up was the security guard and caught the guard by surprise.

 

[Master Blaster]

12 Gauge shotgun , 12 30 caliber pellets at 1500 fps fired at the perps legs first not his head. From 50 + - feet away. The legs to avoid collateral damage, and take him off his feet or reduce his mobility. Yes this would require some practice just like a handgun. I know which one I would pick.

Most security guards are trained for loss prevention.
That is their main job stopping theft.

 

[Kleanbore]

12 Gauge shotgun , 12 30 caliber pellets at 1500 fps fired at the perps legs first not his head. From 50 + - feet away. The legs to avoid collateral damage, and take him off his feet or reduce his mobility. Yes this would require some practice just like a handgun. I know which one I would pick.

A shotgun might be viable, but only if there were no ohter people down range of the target.