Defense against an active shooter

[The Night Rider]

How many of you go shopping - with family members?
Would you still run?

Walmart delivers. We don't even go shopping if it's at all avoidable.

Unless something happens right in front of me I'm not going to try to hunt down an active shooter in a crowded, panicked grocery store or any other public place. I will do my best to get out or defend my family as circumstances dictate.

 

[Blue Jays]

People who gain my focus are when they have no grocery cart and/or no grocery basket with them.
That strikes me as unusual behavior until I see the gallon of milk and box of detergent in their hands.

Do shoppers arrive emptyhanded and mean no ill harm? Yes, of course.
The vast majority do grab a basket or cart. Small point worth observing.

 

[Old Dog]

A "mass shooter" wearing body armor is not a new paradigm.

Attempting headshots is a sure recipe for collateral damage as well. Know your skill level. And if you've never been in a real-life shooting situation before, you may have no idea how you'll respond, so training is your best bet.

Training for pelvic girdle shots (a larger area than the head, and often easier to transition from center of mass shots) is another option which could lessen fatal hits on bystanders.

I would simply say, have a realistic assessment of your own abilities, training and skill level, then let your conscience be your guide.

Some of us may no longer "have a duty" to intervene, but there may be a higher duty than an oath you took years ago.

Can't live with yourself. That's an Internet gun cliche. What does it actually mean? Will you kill yourself after fleeing? Will suffer from a psychiatric disorder such that you will not be able to function or interact with society and loved ones? Yes, you may suffer from psychological trauma but we have some very effective therapies nowadays for trauma related stress disorders. Thus, I don't buy that cliche. Folks have survived all kinds of trauma and got on with their lives.

Many have survived all kinds of trauma and not got on with the rest of their lives. I've lost at least twelve guys (those are only that I know of) with whom I deployed with between 2002 and 2005 to suicide; in my subsequent career, someone I worked with had to take a life and he was an emotional and physical wreck for years. Plus, survivor's guilt is a very, very real thing -- many of us have not only seen it, we've had to live with others who suffered this form of PTSD.

 

[GEM]

No therapy is guaranteed to work. Many male sufferers refuse to get help and choose to self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. They may turn just to talking with peers which has not been shown to be that effective.

However, the cognitive behavioral and eclectic therapies have a good track record. In classes, I have seen for real Special Forces guys tell the males that they should note the symptoms and seek help as it can work.

There is resistance in that getting help is seen as not being manly or that if still in the service or being an LEO, the choice to get therapy will hurt their career. There may be some validity to that.

In any case, stress disorders can be helped. The idea that if you don't intervene in a situation you will be psychologically ruined for life is not a truism. If you don't try to get legit help, it's on the person.

I also note that in simulated bystander intervention FOF, the classic male beating a women, about half of the very skilled, selected participants did not intervene for the reason of protecting themselves from immediate harm and/or later consequences. Can't say where this was because it was proprietorial, sorry.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People who gain my focus are when they have no grocery cart and/or no grocery basket with them.
That strikes me as unusual behavior until I see the gallon of milk and box of detergent in their hands.

Do shoppers arrive emptyhanded and mean no ill harm? Yes, of course.
The vast majority do grab a basket or cart. Small point worth observing.

Heh...as ONE sign among many, sure.

But I quite often do not grab a cart or basket for my jaunts in and out of many places. And when I go with my wife, I'm not always with her and the cart.

Of course, if you saw me without cart or basket and thought "that dude might have a gun and be dangerous", you'd absolutely be 100% correct on both counts. Of course, if you saw me WITH a cart or basket, I'd STILL have a gun and be dangerous.

So yeah...I agree one should be on the lookout for signs (plural), but like many other things in life, one shouldn't focus on one sign to the exclusion of others.

Be safe!

 

[Blue Jays]

People are far more durable, resilient, and hardy than we typically give credit.
Successfully gather and protect all your loved ones and survive a mass shooting?

The vast majority will recall the fading event, as years pass, with deep sorrow yet will meaningfully carry-on.
My sense is the welfare of strangers will not be as heavy a burden. Protecting you and yours is paramount!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Anybody remember the North Hollywood Bank Robbery shooting? That was what started the ball rolling for CA LE to consider training its cops to use and be issued Patrol Rifles. To defeat standard LI/II body armor. One of the things that wasn't often mentioned (at least outside some LE debriefs and training circles) is that even though some of the distances involved during that incident occurred at relatively close range, head shots reportedly weren't being attempted with duty pistols carried by cops. In some training circles among LE agencies that was given some attention and discussion. My agency had always included failure-to-stop scenarios, meaning making precise/aimed head shots, but after that incident it was revisited and given even more attention. Besides, it was a slow rollout to begin rifle training and issuing rifles (including deciding to whom to issue them, and devise policy of when they would be deployed and used). Cops were already carrying handguns, though, so some attention to increasing skills and talking about tactics was ... obvious.

Remember? LOL, I specifically mentioned it above. At the time, LAPD was trained and tested to 25 yards with pistols. They may not have tried head shots, or attempted many head shots, but there were radio calls specifically stating to shoot at the head because the bad guys were wearing body armor. However, they were just having trouble even connecting with the bad guys being out in the open, anywhere on their bodies.

This is from a post I made in 2010 about the incident and taking into consideration the problems of shooting at the distances they were shooting...

So let's say for grins that you get to be stationary and your opposition who is firing at you with a rifle from about 100 yards away is moving laterally from right to left and firing at you, changing directions and moving left to right, much like in the North Hollywood shooting. Let's say the bad guy is moving at a casual 3 mph. That translates to 4.4 feet per second. Let's say you are shooting 124 gr. hollowpoint ammo with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps with a sight axis 0.5" over the bore axis and sighted in at 25 yards. Where do you aim?

The drop will be about 10" difference from POA to POI. So a typical COM shot is going to be hitting around low gut/high hip level. If you actually aim at your aggressor while he is moving at simple walking speed, you will miss with every shot. It will take your bullet approximately 0.28 seconds to travel the 100 yards and in that amount of time your target will have move 15" and your shot will zip right by him.

Oh, but there is a problem or two. The ammo you are shooting only gets 1150 fps from your pistol and the guy is actually moving at 5 mph. You lead him by 15" because you know that aiming right at him will miss. The flight time is now 0.29 seconds and the aggressor is moving at 7.33 fps. That means he will have moved 25.5" during the flight of the bullet to him. You compensated by 15" and so he has moved 10.5" further than you anticipated and you aimed center mass and so you likely still missed the guy unless he is obese.

Of course, these are all just extremely tiny aiming adjustments at your end. After all, the aggressor probably only appears to be about the same width as your front sight looks (assuming you have a typical sort of combat sight instead of a very thin blade sight).

People often wonder how it was that the LAPD fired hundreds of shots at the North Hollywood bank robbers and were told to aim at the heads of the robbers because of heavy body armor but never managed to score a head shot. Between bullet drop and that the robbers staying in motion, plus the aspects that the typical LAPD street cops didn't qualify or train beyond 25 yards and did not train with moving targets, they had virtually no chance of hitting the heads of the robbers with handguns at long range except by random chance and that didn't happen.

If you watch the footage of the robbers in front of the wall of the bank, and behind cars, they pace back and forth while firing and you can see shots impact the wall behind them. They aren't even moving all that fast, probably much less than 3 mph and yet it was enough to preclude that vast majority of shots from even impacting them on their armor.

So the prospect of making effective hits on moving human targets a long ranges with pistols goes well beyond being able to hit a stationary target at distance on a bullseye range. That is a start and a good start, but how many Joe CCW types actually can even hit a stationary target at 25 yards 100% of the time? We see people qualifying for their carry permits who miss targets completely at 3, 5, and 7 yards or shoot 10-20" groups at 7 yards. And this doesn't even take into account issues of improper or atypical shooting stances, adrenaline dumps, being in motion, or bystanders and other influences of a real life long distance defensive shoot.

Few shooting events are going to be at the distances of the North Hollywood shooting. There are exceptions, such as the Austin clock tower, and Vegas. For Vegas, the responding officers didn't fire from distance, but from short range.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

@Double Naught Spy

Very well put. EXTREMELY well, in fact.

I spent many an afternoon with my squirrel rifle plinking on those seed balls on Sycamore trees in my youth. Those are good targets to approximate squirrel heads (my chosen target area for squirrel). Even at the sight-in distance with a steady rest, those are very challenging as the slightest breeze moves the branches and twigs they're hanging from.

In later years, I used to shoot at soda cans at 100 yards with my AMT Automag II pistol. But that can wasn't moving.

To attempt what amounts to the same thing, only using a short barreled handgun with iron sights on a moving target? A head shot is phenomenally unlikely.

ESPECIALLY for people who haven't trained at all beyond basic pistol qualifications.

Real life isn't a movie script, which I'm convinced is what many people (outside those who actually do shoot) base their firearms expectations on these days.

 

[Old Dog]

No therapy is guaranteed to work. Many male sufferers refuse to get help and choose to self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. They may turn just to talking with peers which has not been shown to be that effective.

However, the cognitive behavioral and eclectic therapies have a good track record. In classes, I have seen for real Special Forces guys tell the males that they should note the symptoms and seek help as it can work.

There is resistance in that getting help is seen as not being manly or that if still in the service or being an LEO, the choice to get therapy will hurt their career. There may be some validity to that.

Absolutely agree with you here.

n any case, stress disorders can be helped. The idea that if you don't intervene in a situation you will be psychologically ruined for life is not a truism. If you don't try to get legit help, it's on the person.

Most folks actually do understand themselves pretty well; of course it's not a truism that non-intervention will psychologically ruin one for life, but I'm not going to call BS on someone who believes that if they could take some type of action in a crisis, but didn't, would then have trouble afterwards living with themself... well, every person is has differing existential responses to life events.

I also note that in simulated bystander intervention FOF, the classic male beating a women, about half of the very skilled, selected participants did not intervene for the reason of protecting themselves from immediate harm and/or later consequences. Can't say where this was because it was proprietorial, sorry.

Many, many factors at play here. One can easily understand why the average citizen would be hesitant to intervene in a situation not involving themselves or one of their own family members. But over the recent few years, I've personally witnessed professionals in law enforcement who are reluctant to intervene in situations, a couple of which were even very clear cut, with serious bodily injury to others occurring. Pretty sure most here can hazard a guess or two why this is happening.

In line with the thread topic, myself and a couple other instructors liked to end some of our range training sessions with a little competition, "Would you take the shot?" Have the officers do ten burpees or run full speed -- at least 50 yards -- up to a firing line -- starting at 25 yards, then 35, then 50, then longer until the last guy (or gal) missed a single head shot (on a bad guy target). With pistols.

Here's one of our local guys who ended a armed bad guy's rampage with a pistol shot from between 80 - 84 yards.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Killer+at+a+distance:+the+Scott+Bramhall+incident.-a0478139936

My point would be, if you carry a firearm in your community, be prepared for any situation -- and practice for any type of situation. Even if your plan A is to egress the danger zone as fast as you can. As a citizen, even if you never need what you'd learn from it; force-on-force (FoF) training is the closest you may come to feeling what a real-life situation can be like, moreover, the training can be enlightening (as well as fun).

 

[entropy]

If I was in church / store and someone started shooting people, women, kids and I chose to exit rather than try to stop the killing I would not be able to live with myself later; I do know that. I could not live with 17 deaths on my conscience that might have been prevented like that Parkland security guard. I'm not a cop or security guard, but my moral compass could not bear that.

The question back at you, phrased differently; Could you live with engaging an armored active shooter and hitting and killing innocents, either from misses or pass thru?

Bit of a gray area there for me. I hope I never have to find out, either way.

 

[GEM]

I agree with you Old Dog, I was just commenting on what seems a surface level response to a complex decision. Good post.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The question back at you, phrased differently; Could you live with engaging an armored active shooter and hitting and killing innocents, either from misses or pass thru?

Bit of a gray area there for me. I hope I never have to find out, either way.

The plain fact of the matter is that this is a risk we all assume every day we decide we're going to carry our chosen firearm.

And the fact that an active shooter may or may not be wearing armor makes not one bit of difference with this decision.

We each have to come to grips with this risk and make our own choices in the matter. And likewise, we'll each find out how we'll live with it if it ever comes to pass.

 

[FL-NC]

I'm not a fan of shotguns for anything except shooting things that have feathers. Also, you are responsible for anything that exits the front of whatever gun you are using. Flyers coming out of a shotgun pattern for any reason will hit SOMETHING, and no amount of expertise in marksmanship will reduce the normal patterning of a shotgun. This limits effective range and increases liability as the pattern increases or just falls apart.

 

[shafter]

The vast majority of gun owners will never have the opportunity to train at a range where they can really determine what their actual skill level under stress is. Unless you seek out training from reputable instructors that incorporate simmunitions, or at the very least go shoot on a range where you can move and shoot, you aren't going to know what you can do in what is definitely one of the most complicated self defense scenarios one can find themselves in.

Save up and go to some classes. A good class is pure gold.

 

[Ethan Verity]

The vast majority of gun owners will never have the opportunity to train at a range where they can really determine what their actual skill level under stress is. Unless you seek out training from reputable instructors that incorporate simmunitions, or at the very least go shoot on a range where you can move and shoot, you aren't going to know what you can do in what is definitely one of the most complicated self defense scenarios one can find themselves in.

Save up and go to some classes. A good class is pure gold.

Airsoft would probably be a very good place to start... I've never participated in an airsoft game, however I am very strongly considering it as a place to train on my defensive skills in a dynamic shooting environment. I already own an airsoft GBB version of my home defense rifle, and my CCW pistol, which I currently use just for plinking in the back yard. I know I would be going up against kids who are just treating it as a game, not with the real-steel life and death training mindset... but, a real life active shooter would likely also have the same hard and fast approach as the kids I'm going up against in airsoft (I watched the killer's livestream video, absolutely horrific!)... It surly would be effective, and cheap (compared to simmunitions) training!

 

[Old Dog]

I'm not a fan of shotguns for anything except shooting things that have feathers.

Pretty much how I feel (although I do have a 590-A1 in case I ever feel froggy and think it might be a solution to a problem). I was kind of hoping my last employer would do away with the shotguns as duty weapons, as there was just talk of keeping things simple, patrol carbine and a pistol, but alas, I'm retiring and our folks are still stuck with the shotgun. As an aside, paid security guards through SE Asia (Philippines especially), in many parts of Mexico, Central and South America always seemed to be standing around the entrances toting shotguns...

 

[chicharrones]

I know I need to get out more but I had never heard of having a security guard in a grocery store before this incident. Banks, jewelry stores, etc, I get, but a grocery store? That tells me that store is already having issues, and as such I would think it's probably a good idea to remain as inconspicuous as possible so as to not attract undue attention, precluding visible long guns. Just my amateur, non-worldly pov.

The grocery stores around here have had security guards for years. I figure they are more of a visual deterrent against would-be cigarette thieves. Of which I've seen said thieves run out of stores with arms full of cartons a few times over the years.

 

[chicharrones]

A horrible, horrible crime.

Did anyone notice the age of the victims?

32, 52, 53, 55, 62, 65, 67, 72, 77, 86 (killed)

20, 50, 55 (survived)

The shooter is 18.

Regarding "tactics" at THR, it makes me think of the aging process and how it affects us in reacting to things and maneuvering.

At age 57, I know I can get a bit tunnel visioned through my glasses, and my peripheral vision certainly isn't what it used to be. Not to mention that I ripped my right calf muscle 4 weeks ago at work and have just now stopped limping from it. Maneuvering was severely affected. I still can't run at my personal full speed yet, which sure isn't as fast as I could run at age 18.

 

[bdickens]

If I was in church / store and someone started shooting people, women, kids and I chose to exit rather than try to stop the killing I would not be able to live with myself later; I do know that. I could not live with 17 deaths on my conscience that might have been prevented like that Parkland security guard. I'm not a cop or security guard, but my moral compass could not bear that.

Sounds like you need to go to the police academy and pin on a badge....

 

[Old Dog]

Sounds like you need to go to the police academy and pin on a badge....

Sounds to me as though he's got a conscience. You don't have to be a cop or security guard -- nor want to be one -- to step up and do what needs to be done. You could even be... a pastor...This was another incident local to me, not long ago. This guy didn't run away. Oh, and he was out shopping with his wife, daughter and granddaughter.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...or-kills-gunman-washington-walmart/712899002/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/acted-protect-family-pastor-shot-walmart-gunman-dead/story?id=56055307

 

[Blue Jays]

"…Sounds to me as though he's got a conscience.
You don't have to be a cop or security guard -- nor want to be one -- to step up and do what needs to be done…"

There is nothing "unconscionable" about a person efficiently gathering his or her family to rapidly evacuate a violent encounter. The responsibility of an adult in such a nightmare scenario begins and ends with themselves, family, and dear friends. Nothing is owed to the random stranger shopping in the same aisle.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Some type of light folding carbine, like a modern day C96 Broomhandle carbine, would be ideal.

Perhaps 7,5mm BRNO with double stack magazines and an 8” barrel. Armor piercing carbide tipped rounds. Could be held in a holster and the stock unfolded upon the draw.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

There is nothing "unconscionable" about a person efficiently gathering his or her family to rapidly evacuate a violent encounter. The responsibility of an adult in such a nightmare scenario begins and ends with themselves, family, and dear friends. Nothing is owed to the random stranger shopping in the same aisle.

And, you need not have your family with you to rationalize leaving. If your family depends on you for their welfare, then you have a duty or obligation to get out safely in order to care for them. Let's face it, you probably aren't apt to be risking your life to protect one of Warren Buffet's kids or grandkids and so chances are the folks you save aren't going to heap a pile of money on your family to make up for your loss and lost income for life. They are going to proclaim how thankful they are and call you a hero (maybe) and then enjoy their lives while your family suffers your loss and lost income and benefits.

If you opt (very important word) to put yourself in peril when you don't have to do so in order to help others, that is your decision. It is great that there are people out there willing to do that, but just because you have a gun doesn't obligate you to do so any more than having a fire extinguisher in your car obligates you to run into a burning building with it to find a stranger.

Sounds to me as though he's got a conscience. You don't have to be a cop or security guard -- nor want to be one -- to step up and do what needs to be done. You could even be... a pastor...This was another incident local to me, not long ago. This guy didn't run away. Oh, and he was out shopping with his wife, daughter and granddaughter.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...or-kills-gunman-washington-walmart/712899002/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/acted-protect-family-pastor-shot-walmart-gunman-dead/story?id=56055307

Did you even read the accounts that you posted. First of all, the "pastor" isn't just your soft spoken small church pastor, now, is he?
George said he has a permit to carry a concealed weapon and has significant training in the use of firearms.

"As a volunteer firefighter, I have also received active shooter training. In addition, I am also a credentialed range safety officer. I train regularly to be proficient with the firearm I carry and to do so in a safe and responsible manner," George said.

So, he isn't exactly your average, everyday CCW person that maybe shoots a couple of times a year, if that much.

He did initially "run away" with his family and got them to safety. Before gathering up his family, he even passed by the gunman and did nothing at all to stop the gunman. Isn't that interesting?
He said that while searching for his wife, the gunman walked past him "waving and pointing his gun" as he continued to walk out the exit.

He did eventually act, but only after getting his family to safety and then being in a position where the gunman happened pass again.

Note, and this is critical, he did NOT have his wife and kids with him when he confronted the gunman in the parking lot.

 

[Atavar]

There may be laws out there now at this point is some states, but I think we will see more legislation either banning use of body armor by citizens or increased jail time based on use in a crime.

May be a race to be first as so many other laws have been when something hits the news. Politicians just can't help themselves, "look at me, I'm tough on crime".

There is already legislation banning body armor during the commission of a crime. Of course there are already laws prohibiting shooting or killing people.
This is a fallacy many people fall prey to. They think that if laws are not being followed or enforced then passing more laws will solve the problem. Unfortunately the bad guys have already proved they ignore any and all laws. All more laws do is further restrict the law abiding citizen.
What we need is for the laws we already have to be enforced and for sentencing to be more vigorously applied.

 

[shafter]

Airsoft would probably be a very good place to start... I've never participated in an airsoft game, however I am very strongly considering it as a place to train on my defensive skills in a dynamic shooting environment. I already own an airsoft GBB version of my home defense rifle, and my CCW pistol, which I currently use just for plinking in the back yard. I know I would be going up against kids who are just treating it as a game, not with the real-steel life and death training mindset... but, a real life active shooter would likely also have the same hard and fast approach as the kids I'm going up against in airsoft (I watched the killer's livestream video, absolutely horrific!)... It surly would be effective, and cheap (compared to simmunitions) training!

Airsoft can work. I've spoken about it with some very high level trainers and they told me that Airsoft can work fairly well if you can't use Simunitions. The key is you have to train with a purpose. You want to identify specific things you want to work on and drill that. Messing around with kids would be counterproductive and would probably leave training scars unless they are equally serious as training partners.