Cap and Ball Velocity

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thealchemist

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Did Samuel Colt or anyone else ever try to make a smaller caliber revolver like the .31 or .36 with a longer cylinder to hold more black powder? If someone were to accomplish this would it give a significant increase in velocity and over the colt navy or the 1849 wells fargo or would it be a waste of powder due to it not all burning or would it create too much fouling making it unreliable? I would be interested in seeing how much performance you could squeeze out of a small bore cap and ball revolver with a bigger charge than the Colts or Remingtons will hold.
 
Interesting idea though no one is gonna produce it on anything other than a one off type of thing. It can certainly be made to run reliable enough with proper tuning.
 
I believe the Italians make something called an “Army Frame” in 36 cal. If the cylinders are sized to 44 cal, then presumably they are longer, and perhaps stronger, than comparable “Navy” or scaled frame 36s?
 
Jackrabbit1957 said:
Interesting idea though no one is gonna produce it on anything other than a one off type of thing. It can certainly be made to run reliable enough with proper tuning.
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You are probably right. I enjoy seeing those one off type prototype firearms. There is a video on YouTube of a guy that made a .22 caliber flintlock rifle. It’s the only .22 black powder rifle I’ve seen other than the old Rocky Mountain arms breech loader that fires a #4 buckshot pellet.
 
Roverguy said:
I believe the Italians make something called an “Army Frame” in 36 cal. If the cylinders are sized to 44 cal, then presumably they are longer, and perhaps stronger, than comparable “Navy” or scaled frame 36s?
Click to expand...

The Italians use the same frame for armies and navies. The navy frame isn't rebated is the only difference.
 
30 grains fills the chamber of my ‘51 Navy and there is about 1/8 inch of space left in the chamber of my ‘58 Navy. I’ve never measured how much is needed to fill the chamber on the’58.
 
I have a Lyman .36 Remington Navy with a 7.5 inch barrel. While I never chronographed it it will seat a ball and certainly is a super sonic load all 35 grains FFFg , but is much more accurate at 30 grains and with a thin wonder wad .It certainly is still super sonic and if I had to guess above 1100 fps.
 
Gordon said:
I have a Lyman .36 Remington Navy with a 7.5 inch barrel. While I never chronographed it it will seat a ball and certainly is a super sonic load all 35 grains FFFg , but is much more accurate at 30 grains and with a thin wonder wad .It certainly is still super sonic and if I had to guess above 1100 fps.
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Do you think one would need a longer barrel to get acceptable accuracy from a supersonic .36 round ball?
 
Don't think barrel length and accuracy are normally a factor. The shorter barrels drop the velocity/ energy .I think at least three inches of barrel is enough to give good accuracy. At least that's how it works on smokeless firearms.A longer sight radius enhance ability to accurately aim.
 
Gordon said:
Don't think barrel length and accuracy are normally a factor. The shorter barrels drop the velocity/ energy .I think at least three inches of barrel is enough to give good accuracy. At least that's how it works on smokeless firearms.A longer sight radius enhance ability to accurately aim.
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what would make the supersonic ball less accurate than the subsonic ball from the same gun? Would a different rifling twist help a supersonic .36 round ball be more accurate?
 
Like I said ,I believe any barrel rifled over 3" in a black powder revolver has the mechanical ability to be " accurate " with a ball . All the other factors about rifling ECT being equal the length has a big effect on the velocity produced, mayi alotore so than a smokeless revolver because of powder burn rates and pressures involved. In short those black powder " short" barrels under 6" get low er velocities real quick as the get shorter. The other stuff are complex manufacturing differences that affect ball accuracy ECT.
 
unspellable said:
The effects of drag and wind drift get squirrely in the transonic range. That's the reason for standard velocity vs high velocity 22 LR when target shooting. 1100 fps is in the transonic range.
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I know the round ball is less aerodynamic than a conical bullet so would wind blow a transonic round ball off target more so than a conical or would it be about the same?
 
All else being equal, (Which it never is.) a round ball would be deflected by wind more than a conical. A major factor in wind deflection is the velocity loss during flight. More drag, more loss. A plot of drag versus velocity in the transonic region has some weird kinks. This was one of the causes of all the headaches in getting an aircraft to exceed the speed of sound in the early days. Remember the "sound barrier"? Another headache was that a good design for subsonic flight and one for supersonic flight were very different things. And with an airplane you are attempting to have both in one.
 
It could be done now, but I think that back in the day longer cylinders than what they used then (of iron and not so great steel) would lead to the cylinders bursting when fully loaded. Remember the Walkers and the fluted cylinder 1860's sometimes had the cylinders burst.

Yes, with modern steels you could create a "magnum" cap and ball revolver by using a longer frame and cylinder, in any caliber.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
It could be done now, but I think that back in the day longer cylinders than what they used then (of iron and not so great steel) would lead to the cylinders bursting when fully loaded. Remember the Walkers and the fluted cylinder 1860's sometimes had the cylinders burst.

Yes, with modern steels you could create a "magnum" cap and ball revolver by using a longer frame and cylinder, in any caliber.
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There’s a dragoon currently up on Gunbroker which has a custom .43 caliber barrel and the chambers have been lined to .430 as well.
 
woodnbow said:
There’s a dragoon currently up on Gunbroker which has a custom .43 caliber barrel and the chambers have been lined to .430 as well.
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That’s pretty interesting. Wonder what they used to make the liners. Do they just slide in the cylinder or are they threaded in?
 
Jackrabbit1957 said:
Interesting idea though no one is gonna produce it on anything other than a one off type of thing. It can certainly be made to run reliable enough with proper tuning.
Click to expand...
Do you recall seeing a small bore Ruger on this site? Seems like someone has done that too.
 
thealchemist said:
That’s pretty interesting. Wonder what they used to make the liners. Do they just slide in the cylinder or are they threaded in?
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You would probably have Bobby Hoyt source the liners. WRT sliding the liners in, I don’t know, but pressed in, interference fit would be easiest and would work just fine. If it were me, I’d start with a dragoon, press in .390” ID liners in the chambers and bore and then ream the chambers to .403” and ream and rifle the barrel to .392/.400”. Accurate Molds could make a short for caliber bullet mold and you’ll have a .40 caliber bp magnum. Probably the cheapest way it could be done and it’s probably still gonna cost more than a grand.
 
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