P320 strikers again!

WrongHanded · Oct 20, 2022

starling said:
Its off puting and frustrating ... I get that. I am not ready to throw in the towel on Sig just yet though. Lets see how they handle this. P365 had issues as well until they got things sorted out. Mt favorites are of course the classic sigs but they have not all been dogs. Seems pretty clear the P320 was rushed all around. Also seems pretty clear Sig has a beta testing problem. History has had lots of Military contract pistols get revamped due to various issues... even Beretta after some serious torture testing. Beretta has also had their fair share of dogs like everyone else so there is that as well.

Will I get a P320... doubtful. SA Strikers dont appeal to me much unless they do something unique (10mm version maybe). I do want a P250 at some point though. The P365 9mm doesnt interest me either but the 380acp version does. I am not one to abandon companies because they have a problem here and there...it happens. Mt experience is the smaller companies are much easier to deal with (especially American ones) so it does not suprise me about the lack of transparency. Getting the head designer or tech on the phone at sig I could see being next to impossible and anybody lower level is going to be scared to say anything IF they even understand what you are asking. It took 1 phone call to FMK and about 2 minutes for them to connect me with the designer of their pistol to answer technical questions for me and he was fantastic. Then the service rep bent over backwards with anything I needed. That to me earned a LOT of customer loyalty and I will promote them whenever I can. BUT... that is a small American Company. Its the equivilent of going to your favorite small gun shop where they know you well and going to Academy. Its just an entirely different compny with an entirely different mindset.

Sig Sauer is concerned about Military and LE/Security contracts. If thats the firearms people are drawn to then thats just what you have to accept in terms of your concerns. They are not an American company so the whole RKBA among the populace is always going to be on the backburner as opposed to say Smith and Wesson. Now... I dont agree with that of course but I dont get to make the decisions at Sig Sauer.... wouldnt want to either. So people can get crazy and ticked off at Sig but thats the price you have to accept if you are going to give them your business. If that puts you off then the best thing to do is support and promote another company.

As a fan of almost all things firearms wise I admit that I dont like to bash companies because when they are gone.. they take a lot of good stuff with them and nobody wins with that in the long run. We basically would not have any frearms manufacturers left. I will critisize as constructivly as possible but abandoning is not my thing. I dont want to see anyone close their doors. We need the big boys just as much as the smaller start ups. I push buy American because keeping our domestic firearms manufacturing strong is critical IMO for the long run and I want all people (My continueing family bloodline especially!) to enjoy firearms ownership and the RKBA long after I am gone. There will be no "America" if firearms are gone from the populace.

I hope Sig get a handle on this... really. Best thing people could do right now is to stop buying P320s and bombard them with letters and emails explaining why. It looks to be a serious issue from everything I have seen so far so at some point Sig will be forced to address it. Right now I have a hunch they are working the numbers and trying to come up with some sort of solution. I would think the first thing to do NOW would be to at least pull the P320 sans safety from the market. If the gentleman in the video is being Honest he is doing a great service to us bringing his experience to light even though Im sure his hate mail box if pretty full by now which would be pretty dumb. He could easily be in the Hospital right now trying to recover looking at a long rehab in front of him but he literally dodge a bullet. We can all feel good about that.

So step it up Sig! People are taking notice.

A new line of pistols having issues is frustrating, but forgivable. Providing the issues get resolved with minimal disruption to the customer. This is what happened with the P365. I don't care to pay a company to beta test their pistol, which is essentially what new owners did. But the gun wasn't outright dangerous, so it's not that big of a deal.

But my issue with Sig is that once it became evident and provable that the trigger of the P320 was too heavy for the design, and was allowing trigger/sear creep simply from jostling in the holster, there should have been a mandatory recall for the sake of owner's safety. They didn't do that, and instead called it a "voluntary upgrade" program. They've decided to let their customers continue carrying guns that they know may go bang spontaneously at any point when the chamber is loaded. And that's not okay.

Yo Mama · Oct 20, 2022

I literally hate SIG, years they have hid behind lawyers over guns that go off when they shouldn't. "Fixed" doesn't actually mean it's fixed with SIG. Especially with the p320, every single owner should demand a refund and sue. SIG shouldn't be able to produce firearms.

It's like they want to be the Remington or Taurus of 2022.

Alllen Bundy · Oct 20, 2022

Shipwreck said:
Some other Sig trigger issues:

This is the first that I have heard of this problem.

After the trigger is pulled all of the way back, the sear is on the hairy edge of releasing the striker and a shake is all that it takes to release the striker. Something is preventing the sear from being pulled downward far enough.

Assuming that there isn't a contamination issue, looking at the FCU parts, this could easily be tolerance issues in the trigger linkage adding up the wrong way. This does NOT sound like a break-in issue. In fact, I can see this as a potential problem that may eventually creep in as the pistol parts wear.

The contact points between the sear and the trigger linkage could be malformed or excessively worn. Being new, not so likely to be worn. The hole in the trigger bar that captures the post on the trigger could be excessively large or the trigger post too small. Or the hole in the trigger bar could be too far forward. The hole for the trigger pin could have been drilled too far to the rear. The hole in the trigger that accepts the trigger pin could be too large. A slightly longer than normal trigger bar could cause the issue. The FCU frame could have the hole for the sear too far forward. It could also be that the contact point on the striker sits too far downward. The slots for the FCU rails in the slide could be mislocated. or the rail positions on the FCU could be out of tolerance.

What stops the rearward movement of the trigger is contact of the rear of the trigger against the FCU frame. Grinding this contact point on the trigger a wee bit might give the trigger enough extra travel to move the sear downward far enough.

If I were to hazard a guess, it would most likely be a problem with the trigger bar. It is made from stamped steel. A slight bend or malformation of the bar would likely be all that is necessary to cause the problem. It's possible that a slight bend at the end of the trigger linkage where it contacts the sear might fix the issue.

5-SHOTS · Oct 20, 2022

There are some engineers around who still don't understand the importance of the trigger dingus.
Glock put the trigger dingus for a very specific reason that some still don't get.
Yet, for example, the story of the recall of the first Ruger SR9 should have taught something to the manufacturers of pistols but no, someone still don't understand.
There is some design that has not the trigger dingus like the Walther P99 AS and the Arsenal Firearms Strike One but in these two cases the trigger features a double articulation that only the trigger finger action can operate.

starling · Oct 20, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
No drop firing issues or other unintended firing issues that I am aware of.

Early on Sig did change the extractor design. From what I could tell, the modification would make it easier to manually chamber a round and more reliably extract a round from the firing chamber.

No extractor failure malfunction issues that I am aware of. But if you polish the leading beveled edge of the extractor it makes manual chambering easier.

Sig changed the shape of the disconnector. Not sure if there was a problem or not.

These are the actual issues that I am aware of:

Early production had a batch of bad strikers allegedly improperly heat treated with firing pins that would break off. Appears to be only one bad batch of strikers. Not an issue with present production.

Primer drag. Not sure if this actually caused any malfunctions, but Sig redesigned the striker firing pin with a beveled tip that appears to cure the issue. Not an issue with present production.

There was an aftermarket company making CNC milled strikers, but they also had quality control issues.

Light primer strikes. This was caused by a one piece retaining bushing that was too thick. It can be cured by using the original two piece retainer bushing, or by sanding one side of the one piece retainer bushing. Not an issue with present production.

Failure to return to battery malfunction. Mostly due to friction issues because the breechface, the left adjacent wall to the breechface, and the underside of the striker claw were too rough. The brass shell cases will eventually polish the steel after many thousands of rounds fired. But if you don't want an extended break-in period, wet sanding with ultra fine sandpaper will cure the issue quickly.

Trigger grittiness. Continues to be an issue. However, most the the grittiness greatly reduces during the break-in period. Or you can polish the trigger linkage contact points and make the trigger pull very smoothly without going through a break-in period. This polishing does NOT affect the required trigger pull force and it does NOT affect the action of the trigger. It only makes it very smooth.

VERY difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. Not sure how widespread the issue is, but other people have reported the same problem. The problem is cured with less than 10 minutes of wet sanding of the rough stripper rail with ultra fine sandpaper.

The recoil spring is only rated for 2,500 rounds. ISMI uses a more reliable manufacturing process for the recoil spring and they rate their springs for 5,000 rounds

The recoil spring can coil over itself and jam with as little as 200 rounds fired. I don't know how widespread the issue is. My solution was to use an aftermarket guide rod using an ISMI flat coil recoil spring which by design makes it impossible for the recoil spring to coil over itself. I carry with the ISMI recoil spring with a very low round count and practice with the original Sig recoil spring installed.

The web between your thumb and forefinger can catch on the corners of the XL beavertail during a draw. The cure is to wet sand a mild radius into the corners of the beavertail so that even if you grab the handgrip at the wrong angle, the web between your thumb and forefinger just glides over the beavertail. This sanding has no negative effects.

If the sear spring tangs are too short, or if someone incorrectly installs the sear spring, it will still work correctly. HOWEVER, if you remove the FCU parts can fall off. If the sear spring tangs are the correct length and the sear spring was installed correctly, you can remove the FCU and violently shake it and the parts will not fall off because there is spring loading on the parts.

Everything else is a personal preference issue.

I would have no hesitation buying a P365 series pistol today. The polishing work that I have outlined I just consider part of the break-in procedure. After all, this is not a hand finished $5,000 pistol. It's a $500 production pistol.

Niice write up. Appreciate you taking the time to break all that down. I saved it for future reference in the event that I finally grab a P365 (380 version interests me). It gives me somewhere to start. Thanks.

TomJ · Oct 20, 2022

Thanks for the responses. I've been aware of the P320 issues and have a number of service size guns, so I don't need to gamble on the P320. The P365XL is my carry gun. I don't like to see issues with a particular gun as detailed in the video Shipwreck posted, but I'm not aware of it being a common problem with the P365XL. I haven't heard of the P365XL having the issues the P320 is having and haven't seen any in the internet searches I've done.

starling · Oct 20, 2022

WrongHanded said:
A new line of pistols having issues is frustrating, but forgivable. Providing the issues get resolved with minimal disruption to the customer. This is what happened with the P365. I don't care to pay a company to beta test their pistol, which is essentially what new owners did. But the gun wasn't outright dangerous, so it's not that big of a deal.

But my issue with Sig is that once it became evident and provable that the trigger of the P320 was too heavy for the design, and was allowing trigger/sear creep simply from jostling in the holster, there should have been a mandatory recall for the sake of owner's safety. They didn't do that, and instead called it a "voluntary upgrade" program. They've decided to let their customers continue carrying guns that they know may go bang spontaneously at any point when the chamber is loaded. And that's not okay.

I agree 100%..... Its pretty messed up. Pretty irresponsible on Sigs part. I dont know how they can do a Mandatory recall (other than a press release) when the pistols are out there in the hands of owners though. Ruger didnt even do that with the P85 from what I understand. That was in the case of a parts breakage (Fireing fin/decocker) though where as this P320 stuff it looks to be a failure in the design.

starling · Oct 20, 2022

Shipwreck said:
Some other Sig trigger issues:

Sheesh Sig what the hell. "Hey my trigger wont fire!" ..... " No Worries Mate... Just shake it around a bit.. it will fire then" Shake Shake....... BANG!! COOL!! New protocal in "tactical" training for the P365 to involve the use of a tambourine!

Another New Marketing route for Sig P365! "The New Sig P365.... Shake it off, Shake it off" Taylor Swift Loves Sig!!!" -Disclaimer: Sig Sauer is not liable for they safety of this firearm

A little more Humor.

Looks like Sig has some QC issues along with proper beta testing. This is really budget pistol stuff. Unacceptable for them. I think I will hold off on the P365 380 for a little while. Maybe they will bring out a true DAO model. As of right now the only newer sigs that would interest me are the P250 and P290... and those both seem to be discontinued.

I knew about a few of these early issues with the P365 but I was under the impression that this stuff had been fully hashed out by now.

5-SHOTS · Oct 20, 2022

Another thing that some designers seem not to understand is that a short or even an almost non-existent takeup does not go well with the need for a pistol to be drop safe or against un-commanded discarges. I also note that those who propose firing pin safety devices with a different functioning from that of the most common firing pin safety, they almost always encounter unforeseen problems, see the Caracal pistols, the first CZ P10Cs and others that I am certainly forgetting. When the target is a lighter trigger and an attempt is made to decrease the force required to disengage the firing pin safety, you are walking on a slippery ground and the forces of inertia and the force of gravity are coming at you.

Styx · Oct 20, 2022

5-SHOTS said:
Another thing that some designers seem not to understand is that a short or even an almost non-existent takeup does not go well with the need for a pistol to be drop safe or against un-commanded discarges. I also note that those who propose firing pin safety devices with a different functioning from that of the most common firing pin safety, they almost always encounter unforeseen problems, see the Caracal pistols, the first CZ P10Cs and others that I am certainly forgetting. When the target is a lighter trigger and an attempt is made to decrease the force required to disengage the firing pin safety, you are walking on a slippery ground and the forces of inertia and the force of gravity are coming at you.

The firearm community as a whole have become trigger snobs. If the take up is not short and the pull weight light, they will not buy the gun and they can not shoot the gun accurately. Others will buy the gun, then will spend $150-$200 to "upgrade" the trigger to an aftermarket target/competition like trigger. They are simply supplying demand.

someguy2800 · Oct 20, 2022

The only time I've ever picked up a P320 was at a gun show this summer. I picked it up and asked the seller if I could dry fire it and I couldn't believe how short and light that trigger was for a gun with no trigger safety shoe or manual safety. I don't know if that one had a spring kit in it or what, but the one I looked at was a negligent discharge waiting to happen in my opinion. And apparently if that doesn't get you, it will just go off by itself in the holster lol.

Alllen Bundy · Oct 20, 2022

Some problems will only reveal themselves after considerable use of a product. But the drop firing problem was a FORESEEABLE potential problem for ANY pistol for which it should have been tested BEFORE the P320 was released for sale. This is WHY we do product safety testing. You can find both reliability and safety problems in the design that you didn't know existed.

I performed UL safety testing on electronic power supplies. It typically took 6 weeks to perform all of the required safety testing, IF there were no reliability or safety problems. And that was only the safety testing. There was also an enormous amount of reliability and performance testing performed.

We would do tests like operate the power supply with an air temperature of 140°F and THEN block the air inlets to the power supply. We would simulate shorts inside the power supply in the worst possibly places in the circuit, and the power supply had to fail in a SAFE manner that did NOT catch fire or present an electrocution problem. There was physical testing to make sure that a child could not insert a finger where it could be injured.

It is clear to me that Sig did NOT do the required safety testing on the P320. It does appear that Sig did learn some lessons from the P320 when they designed the P365.

But I do wonder what kind of testing Sig does on each P365 or P320 BEFORE it leaves the factory. My P365 was NOT in suitable condition to be carried for self defense right out of the box. It needed additional finishing work BEYOND a break-in period to be reliable enough.

I'm a realist. Sometimes I cannot afford the quality and performance level in a product that I desire. But often I can do some additional work on a product to make it perform as I desire. That is how I look at my P365. "Some assembly required."

JR24 · Oct 20, 2022

Styx said:
The firearm community as a whole have become trigger snobs. If the take up is not short and the pull weight light, they will not buy the gun and they can not shoot the gun accurately. Others will buy the gun, then will spend $150-$200 to "upgrade" the trigger to an aftermarket target/competition like trigger. They are simply supplying demand.

Yep, I’m a reformed snob. Then I learned it’s best to just learn a trigger, spend time with dry and live fire, and spend “upgrade” or whiz bang trigger $$ on ammo.

someguy2800 · Oct 20, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
Some problems will only reveal themselves after considerable use of a product. But the drop firing problem was a FORESEEABLE potential problem for ANY pistol for which it should have been tested BEFORE the P320 was released for sale. This is WHY we do product safety testing. You can find both reliability and safety problems in the design that you didn't know existed.

I performed UL safety testing on electronic power supplies. It typically took 6 weeks to perform all of the required safety testing, IF there were no reliability or safety problems. And that was only the safety testing. There was also an enormous amount of reliability and performance testing performed.

We would do tests like operate the power supply with an air temperature of 140°F and THEN block the air inlets to the power supply. We would simulate shorts inside the power supply in the worst possibly places in the circuit, and the power supply had to fail in a SAFE manner that did NOT catch fire or present an electrocution problem. There was physical testing to make sure that a child could not insert a finger where it could be injured.

It is clear to me that Sig did NOT do the required safety testing on the P320. It does appear that Sig did learn some lessons from the P320 when they designed the P365.

But I do wonder what kind of testing Sig does on each P365 or P320 BEFORE it leaves the factory. My P365 was NOT in suitable condition to be carried for self defense right out of the box. It needed additional finishing work BEYOND a break-in period to be reliable enough.

I'm a realist. Sometimes I cannot afford the quality and performance level in a product that I desire. But often I can do some additional work on a product to make it perform as I desire. That is how I look at my P365. "Some assembly required."

I accustomed to needing to do some work on guns. I almost always do some smoothing or slicking up or some sort, and even some extensive reworking in some cases, but for the prices Sig asks for their stuff I expect a finished product that will go bang when I want, and not go bang when I don't. I also work in an industry that has to build our products to pass UL testing and its pretty apparent to me that sig is not doing anything that could be described as extensive testing on their products. Its funny that a hair dryer has to go through much more rigorous testing than a handgun, but its true.

upptick · Oct 20, 2022

FL-NC said:
Another good reason for me to stick with Glock. My former unit decided to stay with them too instead of picking these things up. I had an opportunity on a good deal on one of these Sigs a couple of months ago and I passed. I will continue to do so- just too many issues keep coming up with them- the reputation of those guns has been ruined for me. No coming back.

Would you trust the Sig p365? I really like the size of the p365 and have one with a manual safety that I pocket carry. In the back of my mind I'm just a bit leery of Sig since they do indeed have a sketchy record with some of their guns. What do you think? Are all Sigs just a bit suspect?

JR24 · Oct 20, 2022

upptick said:
Would you trust the Sig p365? I really like the size of the p365 and have one with a manual safety that I pocket carry. In the back of my mind I'm just a bit leery of Sig since they do indeed have a sketchy record with some of their guns. What do you think? Are all Sigs just a bit suspect?

I trust my 365. And the spare one.

But I won’t buy a 320, I have Glocks that fill that role. Then again I could easily replace my 365xls with Glock 43x or 48s and be happy.

upptick · Oct 20, 2022

starling said:
Wow I didnt know there were so many that dislike Sig Sauer. ...

The overcomplicated engeneering is just a stubborn German thing. ...

I think the newer Sigs are designed and made in the U.S. and anything with a military contract -- like the 320 -- has to be made in the U.S.

Navy87Guy · Oct 20, 2022

Styx said:
Another reason why I don't carry AIWB. From what I hear, Sig states the issue was with the firing pin spring.

That’s what he said Sig said…he claims it was a phone call and he doesn’t have it in writing.

He’s a video “presence” who films everything and posts it. No one has heard directly from his “witnesses” - it’s all just his word.

If you actually study the firing mechanism of the P320, you will see that even if the “suspect” spring fails, it wouldn’t cause the gun to fire.

There’s a lot about this “story” that doesn’t ring true…

upptick · Oct 20, 2022

Shipwreck said:
Some other Sig trigger issues:

Wow. Yet another problem with Sig. I fell in love with Sigs in the 90s and thought they were the best of the best. Maybe their old steel DA/SA guns were/are. I can't say I have the same opinion of their modern firearms. I'm aware of problems with accidental discharges with the 320, the Sig Cross rifle, previous problems with the striker/firing pin mechanism on the p365, and now this trigger issue. I do have a p365 and like it, but now I'm wondering whether I should be so confident in it....

starling · Oct 20, 2022

upptick said:
I think the newer Sigs are designed and made in the U.S. and anything with a military contract -- like the 320 -- has to be made in the U.S.

sure but its still giving money to a foreign company so.... for me.... I do my best NOT to go that route. Its fine. They dont have anything in current production I am just dieing to have. The 10mm P320 looks good but I am not going anywhere near that design for a while. Anything else I can get used where Sig doesnt profit. That money stays in the country.

starling · Oct 20, 2022

Navy87Guy said:
That’s what he said Sig said…he claims it was a phone call and he doesn’t have it in writing.

He’s a video “presence” who films everything and posts it. No one has heard directly from his “witnesses” - it’s all just his word.

If you actually study the firing mechanism of the P320, you will see that even if the “suspect” spring fails, it wouldn’t cause the gun to fire.

There’s a lot about this “story” that doesn’t ring true…

I can only take him for his word unless someone proves otherwise. Anyone attacking him over personal bias seems pretty foolish to me. He is just getting the word out over a safety concern. That should be commended by everyone...including Sig.

Sigs explanation of a suposed reset spring sounds like BS to me. I dont see how a faulty reset spring could cause this. Somebody is not being honest here... my hunch is its sig (given their recent track record) trying to cover their rear over a pretty serious design flaw that would require a massive recall and damage the brand.

Sig will eventually do the right thing but they sure are dragging their heels about it. Tight lipped ..sure...but at least release a press statement informing customers that they are investigating the incident and out of an abundance of caution to sideline the P320 until its resolved.

thing are going to get a whole lot worse if someone ends up shot or dead. That kind of situation does serious damage to a brand as the trust factor is severly damaged.

FL-NC · Oct 20, 2022

upptick said:
Would you trust the Sig p365? I really like the size of the p365 and have one with a manual safety that I pocket carry. In the back of my mind I'm just a bit leery of Sig since they do indeed have a sketchy record with some of their guns. What do you think? Are all Sigs just a bit suspect?

In all honesty I couldn't say due to lack of experience with the newer Sigs- all of my experience is with Sigs like the 226 and 228, which is apples and oranges from these newer ones. I know versions of these new guns have had some concerning issues, which is not doing their reputation any favors. I have fired the P365, and it worked fine. I don't personally have a dog in the fight as far as the 365 is concerned because I have a shield 9 I am happy with. If I was going to pick something else with a higher capacity I would choose a hellcat.

WrongHanded · Oct 20, 2022

Shipwreck said:
Some other Sig trigger issues:

I just watched this, and I'm honestly shocked.

So Sig gets informed that one of their pistols, which is fairly new, only fires sometimes, and they don't want it back right away to set things right?! Instead, they advise the customer that the gun just needs "breaking in"??? Yeah right!

Super common for guns to just not fire sometimes when they're new. /s

Navy87Guy · Oct 20, 2022

starling said:
Sigs explanation of a suposed reset spring sounds like BS to me. I dont see how a faulty reset spring could cause this.

That was his claim about what Sig said - he doesn’t have it in writing and Sig hasn’t made any statement, as you point out. So it’s not “Sig’s explanation” until they say it. And since it’s impossible mechanically, I doubt you’ll hear it from them.

WrongHanded · Oct 20, 2022

starling said:
Thing are going to get a whole lot worse if someone ends up shot or dead. That kind of situation does serious damage to a brand as the trust factor is severely damaged.

True enough. Except that there's been strong and vocal public support for Sig's new line in recent years. Even to the point of dismissing claims of spontaneous discharges, and suggesting that those who experienced such instances of failure were actually lying about it to cover up some negligence on their part.

The evidence keeps coming, but so does the denial, misdirection, and blame shifting.

P320 strikers again!

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