Is "six" still enough for defense?

Using a handgun in self-defense WILL involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

Using a handgun in self-defense MAY involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

Until it doesn't. Rare but other things do happen. Indianapolis mall? Yep, the good guy could have fled. Want to go over the rampages with two or more shooters and not close up. Rare but it does happen. Where I worked, the likely incident wasn't going to be one mugger dude close up but a crazy. Not a locale where muggers prowled for economic crime but would be targeted by a mass shooter.

Good article on the limited capacity guns: https://www.shootingillustrated.com...e-drawbacks-of-a-subcompact-single-stack-9mm/

Not going to change the mind of the super duper never miss with two shots guys who will only ever come across one mugger. Until the next time!

Oh, PS - A message from Joe Biden:

Join me in banning higher capacity guns and magazines. The knowledgeable gun user acknowledges they are not necessary because:

Using a handgun in self-defense WILL involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

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Thus, there is no need for anything beyond a derringer. I will if re-elected ban and confiscate all guns that can carry more than 6 shots. Gun owners, if responsible join me. Only the crazed killer will want more.

Carrying the 38 is already overkill. A high-capacity service pistol and a bunch of extra mags would just be ridiculous

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+1

The states of NY, CA, NJ, etc. thank you for the support of their various types of gun bans. You are keeping the streets of America safe!

Need is like predicting the future, or will added capacity help me sleep at night, or feel protected whether inside or outside the house.

I think we can all agree that none of us want to get involved in a situation where we have to draw a ccw, much less shoot. Even if you feel 110% justified, the years of criminal and civil scrutiny, emotional roller coasters, financial impacts of attorney fees, possible social stigma, etc. is a very heavy cross to bear.

But even if you go out of your way to “avoid those places”, mopes aren’t constrained from crossing your path. Go to the mall for a new pair of slacks, stop at the gas station to fuel up the chariot, hit Pollys Diner for biscuits and gravy, and there could be a clown (or two, or three) walking in right behind you hell bent on mayhem. Heck, you could be in your PJ’s watching the news and some morons could be on the porch planning to boot open your door for a home invasion.

Whatever you choose to carry concealed or have at the ready in the home, make sure you are confident and competent with it. The goal is simple; in case all other avenues to avoid it fail you have to have the best chance to prevail in a deadly confrontation.

Only you can know if 5-6-10-15 etc. of .32,.38, .45, in a revolver or an auto etc. are “enough” for you. Everyone is different, and the variety of options and freedom to choose a suitable ccw is the best part of being an American. (Even here in the Peoples Republik of California there are several revolver-auto options to purchase.)

There is no right or wrong answer. The only answer that matters is yours.

Stay safe.

The decision on what is right for you is the outcome of incident. If you lose, that decision may not be the best one. Being a free American certainly gives you the option of making bad choices. That is was freely made - so what.

It's all your acceptable level of risk and ability to deal with that level of risk. Ride a motorcycle without a helmet. This message is brought to you by the cardiac surgeons of America.

LiveLife said:

I am sure these ladies wished they had more than 6/7/10+ rounds - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-defense-going-up.912017/page-5#post-12454066

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They had the gun taken away from them. Would having more ineffective rounds fired or available to the robber helped?

Was just watching a review of a Kahr P45 on YouTube and the poster said "if you need more than six with this gun, run!'
That gave me a chuckle. He was a pretty good shot, too.

WrongHanded said:

Okay. But you're comparing two different guns - one of which you are more familiar with - and then making a judgement about capacity based on how well or poorly you personally shoot each gun.

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Besides my .32 Mag revolver, my other pocket guns are "low capacity" autoloaders and I shoot them well in comparison to the Max. The Max needs some mods done to it to work better for me.

WrongHanded said:

Now comparing how well you shoot one gun to another in an effort to determine which one your should carry, is certainly worthwhile. However, it's critical that whatever gun we choose to carry, we ensure we can shoot it well.

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That's my only real point.

WrongHanded said:

So assuming you're willing to work hard to become competent with the firearm and reach your own minimum proficiency requirements.... would you rather have more than 6 rounds in your gun?

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Of course I'd rather have more than 6, otherwise I wouldn't have bought the Max.

There's really nothing new in this thread. It's like the salmon coming up the creek to spawn or the tides. The arguments will be the same, no minds will be changed. Folks just want their view point to be justified. Kind of like a political debate. Why, GEEZ WHIZ, my candidate is an idiot - I'd better change my vote to a guy or gal I'm in total disagreement with!

Until the next iteration of the same question. Wonder if Justices Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson can convince Kavanaugh and Roberts when the NYS CCIA comes to them, that the expertise on THR justifies the mag limits!

chicharrones said:

My city.

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That was our city before we moved to our retirement location. Gun shots and mag dumps every night within earshot. Multiple home invasion robberies by gang bangers who even posted spotters at the ends of street with radios/scanners. And even when home owners cooperated, they still got raped/robbed/killed, especially if there was new gang initiation happening.

Even with two pistols and tactical vests full of magazines and AR15s in .223/.300 BLK we slept with, we felt undergunned. Ended up getting 3 guard dogs and I welded up 180 feet of powder coated metal fencing around the house ... House across the street was squatted by like 3 different families and police would come by weekly with multiple patrol cars and always took in several perps as we found out paroled inmates were going there and dealing drugs ... The day we packed up and drove away in our moving van, there was like 14 patrol car for another bust.

WisBorn said:

They had the gun taken away from them. Would having more ineffective rounds fired or available to the robber helped?

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There were SO MANY THINGS that went wrong with the two ladies being robbed ... was hard to watch first several times as things could have ended up really badly for them.

And I doubt they would have the same firearm solutions now. My bet is, if they are still working the same job, they are armed with much better firearm solutions.

Wow, just wow.

How many times you plan on missing?

Nobody plans on missing, its just that reality really sucks.

wcwhitey said:

How many times you plan on missing?

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Plan on missing . . . Lol. I figure most criminals are going to try and move like a fictional character in the Matrix.

View attachment 1113229

Indicating a viewpoint that high-capacity platforms are not an absolute necessity for effective everyday CONCEALED CARRY has absolutely no alignment with general support of broad magazine restrictions, nor a desire to "prohibit" anyone from carrying their weapon of choice.

You folks, especially MODS, should be better than to suggest such tripe.

wcwhitey said:

How many times you plan on missing?

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Hmm...

Usually I'm on board with the concept of not missing, or not missing much.

But to play devil's advocate, let's assume that the average private citizen will miss with the same percentage as the average cop. Stress can cause people to perform poorly, and many people don't have much training. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the average concealed carrier will perform at least as poorly as the average police officer.

Now reports and statistics of LEO hit/miss rates vary. But let's say they hit about 30% of the time (or bring your own ratio and apply it). Figure out what 30% of your gun's capacity is, and decide if that's enough.

Something else that seems to be being missed here is, you may make hits, even good hits, but they may not shut things down, and you need to keep shooting until they do, or youre empty.

Good hits on paper for a score are just a score and simply show you may be capable of making good hits, and in reality, mean little in the real world. Will those hits actually stop a fight? Maybe, maybe not.

People, on the other hand, might fall down with a minor, insignificant wound, or might fight through with fatal wounds, contrary to what you've always been told or conditioned to, and you need to be ready and capable for both. You need to be prepared and capable of literally "shooting them to the ground" if they dont want to go down..

I pocket carry! I like this type of carry because it is comfortable, works well with my attire, is not noticeable, and allows me to place my hand on my firearm in uncomfortable situations. Three revolvers (5 shots) and a LCPII are my normal choices. I have been considering adding a micro 9 or LCP Max to go up to 10 or 11. Criteria 1 needs to fit my front pocket and of course be reliable. If IWB or OWB is your carry style why wouldn't you carry a higher capacity pistol that would be comfortable?

How often do you plan on missing? Well, I've never seen a competitor in USPSA, IDPA or Steel Challenge shoot a C,D or Mike; shoot a -3 or a 5, never miss a target or the final gong target. Yes, indeed, folks who are skilled competitors never miss with guns optimizing for accuracy. Nor in my FOF experience, have folks ever missed an righteous opponent. Yes, indeed that's true. No misses ever, I never make one!!

About the politics of limitations - it is full of what a person needs for SD. Now, some governors even deny that armed self-defense is needed or possible. However, two shot double barrel Joe - his rational for gun bans on everything else. Court briefs are full of such analyses. Decisions (sometimes like the foolish ambiguity of Heller) suggest that some common higher capacity weapons can be subject to bans.

Opinions such as the one I quoted on how gun fights WILL occur - that would be in my pro ban brief.

WrongHanded said:

Hmm...

Usually I'm on board with the concept of not missing, or not missing much.

But to play devil's advocate, let's assume that the average private citizen will miss with the same percentage as the average cop. Stress can cause people to perform poorly, and many people don't have much training. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the average concealed carrier will perform at least as poorly as the average police officer.

Now reports and statistics of LEO hit/miss rates vary. But let's say they hit about 30% of the time (or bring your own ratio and apply it). Figure out what 30% of your gun's capacity is, and decide if that's enough.

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You are correct, my question was actually not to be a smart ***. From what I have witnessed or investigated the hits are usually the first few, the misses as adrenalin and round count go up. It’s contradictory to what people think that you keep trying until you get the hit, it seems to be the opposite. I know of a few famous shoot outs that the round count got high, one I am personal friends with two of the participants. Contagious gun fire is a thing when more than one shooter are involved. Police incident shooting numbers are rarely comparable with civilian. Shooting happens by Police where a smart civilian is able to run away. Cops cannot do this and adrenaline is usually flowing big by the time the shooting starts. This raises the miss count. Not unlike military statistics. The greatest shooters miss in combat. All the numbers In seen have varied from time period to time period, they go up and down but 30% is probably the average.
I think at the minimum one should carry a gun, one enough to repel an attacker at contact distance to the standard of 7 yards. Beyond that, things get questionable. One of the reasons I like revolvers, they don’t malfunction at contact distance! From a pocket, nothing to catch in clothing, a limp wrist doesn’t matter. Put your G19 into the belly of your attacker to ensure a hit and you now have a single shot. A revolver, get FTF keep pulling, less picky about ammo choice. The downside is of course the capacity. So if one is the carry a revolver of 5/6/7/8 shot capacity reloading should be practiced. When was the last time you heard someone even talk about a partial reload of a revolver, it was taught once open a time. One had to know what direction your cylinder turned (Colt or Smith). Put a few in during the lull. Been carrying a revolver for 35 years now, with a few exceptions every day. It’s manual of arms is imprinted into my brain.
All that being said, it’s my choice based on my security plan put together from my experience and training vs. the perceived need. I don’t chase bad people anymore, I avoid them best I can. If they catch me I think I will be fine.
If a G19 is one’s choice for EDC by all means I am for ya, I have nothing bad to say. I would never call you wrong. As long as you know what your doing, have practiced, hopefully received some training. There are so many good handguns out there. Buy what you want based on your perceived need. Practice and train with it, make it second nature. Make smart choices by avoiding trouble when you can and hope you never need it.

6 rounds is plenty, until it isnt. No matter what statistics or how many articles you read, your gunfight will be it's own event. It's over when it's over. Much like professional sports games. The winner is determined on the decisions and performance during the game.

Ive investigated shootings that took 1 9mm from a guy carrying 70 rounds total and Ive seen people with low capacity guns run out of ammo.

"just dont miss".... that's all fine and dandy, but you just might miss. Not only that, what if your hits are not producing the results you want. A buddy of mine several months back got into a gunfight with a guy who just shot his partner. He hit the guy 4 times with a 40 cal Glock model 22 shooting 180 grain HSTs. The guy drove off and was found a couple days later after an extensive manhunt.

Carry what you are comfortable carrying. If your carry gear becomes too cumbersome that you dont carry, that's a problem.

For the record, I carry a 5 shot J frame a lot of the time.

Statistically, you are unlikely to ever need a gun. And, statistically, if you do ever need a gun, you are unlikely to need more than a few rounds. The folks who introduce multiple assailants into the discussion apparently ignore the fact that there are almost no recorded instances of criminals sticking around after the first shots have been fired.

There are such instances, of course, and I won't blame a man who wants to be prepared for them. I also won't blame the man who figures they are rare enough to be ignored. I guess the only real issue I have is with the man who figures he knows better than everyone else.

357smallbore said:

Is 6 rounds enough in today's America where you have your bangers doing a spray and pray shooting. Psycho mental people doing mass shootings. I have revolvers and autos, I am a wheel gunner though. I like autos, just prefer the revolver as my carry gun. I carry a speed strip with me as my reload if needed.
I'm either packing my Rossi 720 in 44 Special or my Ruger Speed Six in 357 The 44 is a 5 shot.
When I do carry auto. It's either my S&W Shield 9mm or my Taurus G3c.
I live in a nice 35k town 35 miles outside Kansas City. I work in the city M-F.
Just reevaluating what I may want or need to do going forward.

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Some somewhat-scattered thoughts:

Six may be enough. Perhaps, six will not be enough. It is possible that twelve will not be enough. Should we prepare for what is probable, or, should we prepare for the potential consequences?

I tend to carry revolving pistols.

“Speed Strips” are NOT a speedy way to reload. A speed strip is, indeed, a very fast way to get two rounds into the cylinder, but, is a VERY SLOW way to get the third and fourth rounds into the cylinder, and as for the fifth/sixth, well, let’s hope those last two were not needed, in any hurry.

Reloading a typical auto-loader normally requires less manipulation that loading one or two cartridges into a revolver, assuming that a spare magazine is kept readily available.

Bad guys can drive to “nice” towns. If KC has bad guys in it, they may be mobile. If the KC transit system reaches your small town, they don’t even need to drive.

A revolver’s “magazine” is semi-permanently attached to the weapon. That can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing, depending upon the context.

As I sit here, typing this, at about 10:00 in the evening, a 2” six-shot revolver is within reach, and another 2” six-shot revolver is inside a waist pouch, almost as close to me. If my wife were to say that I needed to make a milk run, I would probably carry both of them with me. (Bumps in the night would prompt me to reach for a shotgun.)

There is much wisdom in this video:

I can't answer for 6. I only carry 5 and one speed loader. And most times I leave the speed loader at home. I'm 75 and never needed One. I think this craze to carry more is more of an ego thing than anything else.

I'm a high capacity guy and it's definitely not an ego thing and definitely not a spray and pray thing.

I hate plastic. I make a living in metal working manufacturing. Haven't taken a vacation in 10 years. I drove a stick shift until almost no trucks were available with sticks. I've had the same job 30 years. Same great wife for 30 years. I never knew Glocks were prevalent in movies because I was busy not watching movies. My social media consists 100% of THR. I'm an old school, cranky old man that thinks our country is being ruined by politicians.

But I carry a Glock 17 because it's reliable, cheap and I shoot it well. Most of my range time consists of draw and shoot 1 to 3 rounds.

Some, not all but some of the revolver guys need to realize that many of the high capacity guys are just like them in most ways.