Is "six" still enough for defense?

[defjon]

I believe folks should be able to carry what ever they want. You want to carry something with 100 rounds on board, you do you.

But I just want folks to see capacity itself being the goal may not be the most important aspect of the equation.

I've discussed this before, but last year I bought an lcp max to possibly supplant the j frame. I spent a lot of time with the max and found it slower to present and decidedly less accurate. Granted, I've been shooting this airweight since 2008. If I posted pictures, boy, she sure is ugly. I don't think I've seen the original finish since Obama was president.

However, I can shoot it from the draw fast and accurately. I can stage the trigger and ring steel gongs out as far as they go (30 yards +).

Reading about the greenwood mall shooting at 40 yards, I am better off with my j frame and a spare, or a reload, where I can place them at distance quickly vs the max that seemed to lack accuracy even at close range (10 yards <under). I went back to what works for me.

Now, I had a hellcat and ec9 that made it easy to shoot well and may pick up those again at another point. Sometimes I want more than a revolvers capacity on hand. Neither present as quickly or carry as easily for me.

 

[Agsalaska]

I think we can all agree that five shots is enough for the VAST majority of citizen incidents. I hate to put an unverifiable number on it but it has to be more than nine out of ten are solved with five or less. I would bet a lot of money on that.

So it is the other 10% that we are talking about. At that point Is it worth whatever perceived sacrifice to change? For some yes, but for most probably not.

I live in a pretty safe area and carry a Ruger LCR in .327 Fed. Reason number one is shootability and number two is comfort. I have never found anything else I shoot as well and comfortably conceal that is that small. When I say comfort I am not just referring to physical comfort. I really like the DA in a concealed handgun. I am much more comfortable with that than a striker fired gun for CCW duties. And I without a doubt shoot the LCR better than any comparable(size wise) auto loader.

But I would never tell someone else that they are right or wrong with their personal choice of carry. Just carry.

 

[mcb]

I certainly haven't followed every sub conversation in this thread so hopefully this is not completely off topic.

Looking at the history of sidearms has there ever been a wide spread trend to sidearms with less capacity than the previous greatest sidearm in common use? IE we went from single and double barrel flint locks pistols to similar percussion sidearms to the first revolvers that were mostly 5-shooter with 6-shooter becoming the norm and a few with higher capacity (7 -10) mixed in. When we finally moved to semi-autos in a widespread way it was 7+ rounds and we have since moved to double stack semi-autos being the most prevalent used and capacity is greater again. Other than the anomaly of the 94 AWB (its ten year span) were we say a resurgent in slightly larger calibers (40S&W and 45 ACP over 9mm) and a hard limit at 10rds due to the legal based artificial capacity limit I can think of few other times when the general trend for sidearms (civilian, LEO, or military) has trended to lower capacity.

Is six still enough for defense? Historically we have always strived for as many rounds as practical within the current technology so I think the answer has to be, No. Can you make it work, most certainly. But the current technology allows us to carry significantly more and if history follows its own precedent we will not see that capacity go down even if gun powder and kinetic projectiles are replaced with some new unforeseen technology yet to reveal itself.

 

[GEM]

The whole argument should be resolved by saying that one understands the limit of the smaller capacity guns and that you carry such for their convenience or your personal preference. Denying the higher intensity events (as some have done) is what is silly. Just accept that the smaller gun is limited, don't deny that it is not optimal in quite possible but rarer situations. The double barrel percussion pistol would work with the single mugger, most likely.

 

[wcwhitey]

I was a medic in the Army and believe me, people don't get "blown back" like Hollywood movies when they are shot and will keep shooting until they realize they were shot and/or see blood ... Add influence of drugs/sleep deprivation/adrenaline/suicidal and homocidal tendencies and it won't matter that they were shot and bleeding.

These are "real world, real life" videos of actual shootings and how different people react to being shot ... some attackers don't care they are shot and will keep attacking - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455078

And some care and go "crap, I got shot" and run/fall - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/is-six-still-enough-for-defense.912223/#post-12455090

Mental and emotional responses are powerful in influencing whether attackers stop attacking but usually being shot evokes fight or flight response that triggers release of hormones that can hyper-enhance human body functions until blood pressure drop causes body to slow down ... which is an eternity in a gun fight.

Keep in mind the mentality of attackers in 2022 as what we were taught in the 60s-70s may no longer be applicable in 2022.

This is what older generations saw growing up to think/believe 6 rounds of .357 Mag will do. And how many attackers and robbers now in their 60s and 70s are going to shoot you? Not many

​

And this is what current generations saw growing up to think/believe about shooting ... Yes, you can get shot and still move around and shoot back ... until you bleed out and can't move ... And this is the reality we must factor when considering how to arm ourselves against threats in 2022.

​

Thank You for your Service! I completely agree that Gun Shot wounds from handguns are not super reliable stoppers. Stops and kills are two separate subjects often treated the same or in the same sentence, they are not. My issue though is the reliance on how Police act or what Police use. As an armed citizen you are not the police. It is not your job to hunt and seek out criminals. You are not generally body armored and you do not represent authority (In theory). Nor do you have the legal and financial backing of a municipality in equipment and legal liability. If you are driving your vehicle into a gunfight your head needs to be examined (not you personally just a general statement). It is the JOB of the Police to sometimes place themselves in harms way, on purpose!
As a private citizen your domain is protection of yourself, family and in some places property (not all). What the concern for armed citizen is what do I need to have with me to protect myself from a random act of violence, one that I cannot retreat from or avoid. If you place yourself in harms way purposely your doing it wrong. Wether your state has “stand your ground” laws or not it is advisable to retreat if possible. It’s just good tactics making personal, legal and financial sense.
What a person carry's should be based on real reflection and a solid plan based on their training and personal lifestyle. In the home it is easy to supplant a small carry firearms with that of a larger handgun or long gun. So I adjust my carry for in vehicle travel, in and out of the vehicle and in public. So generally on my person is a J Frame S&W 638, Speer 135 Grain Short Barrel +P a speed strip in my pocket and an speed loader in my truck. It’s a 24/7 carry situation that requires no thinking, manual of arms is second nature.
I not an old guy that just wishes it was the old days. I am strong, fairly healthy and good with my hands from years of training. I can still run a block or two if I have too. Carrying a small revolver also did one thing for me that was intentional. It reminded me not to get involved in things that for the a huge part of my life it was my job to go towards. That’s not my job anymore! Your mileage may vary!

And old saying that has always stuck with me “A pack of Hyenas can easy overwhelm the strongest Lion”.

 

[jmorris]

1 is enough until you need two. Six becomes insufficient when you need #7.

 

[CDW4ME]

I did a thread not long ago, Capacity of the handgun you carry most of the time:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...he-handgun-you-carry-most-of-the-time.906092/

75% of people that responded (voted in the poll) carry a handgun with more than 6 rounds capacity.

 

[balin]

As I see it carrying a gun is about wanting to feel more comfortable. I carried 5 rounds today and felt fine. Future history will tell me if that is actually enough. 30 years ago the homicide rate was about 50% higher then it is now. So it would appear that I am less in need of carrying a gun now or maybe evena higher capacity one. But I still carry every day. Usually in the 5 -14 round range.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

Six is plenty.

If it’s not, you either need to learn to shoot, or it’s frankly just your time.

 

[trackskippy]

LOL. Gotta love the "learn to shoot" comments.

And I do agree! 120%! Learn to shoot "realistically", over diverse courses of fire, and I think you'll have a different outlook on things.

 

[GEM]

Six is plenty.
If it’s not, you either need to learn to shoot, or it’s frankly just your time.

Andrew Cuomo sends his love. Stay SAFE when you ACT.

 

[buck460XVR]

LOL. Gotta love the "learn to shoot" comments.

And I do agree! 120%! Learn to shoot "realistically", over diverse courses of fire, and I think you'll have a different outlook on things.

Folks do not only have to learn to shoot "realistically", but also to have a realistic mindset when it comes to civilian self defense. We are not LEOs that have to pursue criminals, in fact, we are forced to stop shooting when the threat is dead, left or actively leaving.

I did a thread not long ago, Capacity of the handgun you carry most of the time:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...he-handgun-you-carry-most-of-the-time.906092/

75% of people that responded (voted in the poll) carry a handgun with more than 6 rounds capacity.

...and I would guess that 75% of those, have never "realistically" practiced SD, in a scenario where one would need more than 6 rounds. Most folks don't have the slightest idea of what to do in a "firefight", which is more than one armed assailant, much less practiced regularly at a distance of more than 10 yards. How many practice under the stress of an attacker that is shooting back? Or from deep cover at a moving target? Does no good to have tools that you do not know how to use, yet realistically, that is what I see all the time at the range.

From folks that should know,

FBI stats say the average gunfight includes three rounds fired over three seconds from a distance of 3 yards

...from luckygunner.com,

In the overwhelming majority of the incidents where an armed civilian fires a shot in self-defense, probably 70 to 90% of them are able to resolve the situation within 3 or 4 rounds, and usually closer to one or two rounds. Every once in awhile, the good guy fires more like 5 to 8 rounds.

In no way am I telling folks what to use for SD/HD. That is a personnel decision that should be based on one's ability, what one is comfortable with and what they are competent with. That decision should also be made "realistically". Around here, the popularity of using a gun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds for deer hunting is increasing. Yet, I wonder how many deer are actually killed on the 6th shot or later. Again, I don't have an issue with high capacity firearms, for hunting or SD. Use what you want, that is what the 2nd is all about. Just don't criticize those folks that use lower capacity firearms, know how to use them and feel confident with them in their pocket.

 

[mavracer]

1 is enough until you need two. Six becomes insufficient when you need #7.

And this hasn't changed ever.
I get a kick out of the 6>5 crowd that think it's 20% better. 99.99% of the time when 5 wasn't enough neither was 6 cause the real answer was >6.

 

[trackskippy]

Folks do not only have to learn to shoot "realistically", but also to have a realistic mindset when it comes to civilian self defense. We are not LEOs that have to pursue criminals, in fact, we are forced to stop shooting when the threat is dead, left or actively leaving.

Mindset, knowing your ROE, laws, etc, is all a part of this, its a package deal.

Theres a lot more to all this than just popping a gun, of any capacity, in your pocket and calling it good. It requires constant work and continuing education on your part, and in all respects. And it is your responsibility to be up on all of it.

If you think you can deal with the shooting part with 6, have at it. Personally, Id prefer to have 15 or 16 left in the gun when it was all said and done, then to find out I need number 7 and its not there. Having the capacity costs me nothing.

 

[GEM]

I've done enough FOF, classes and competition not to want a reasonable carry load. I've read about the more extreme cases where capacity would have helped. Are they rare, yes, so what. Of the hundreds of thousands of miles I've driven. I've had only 4 major accidents (due to idiots who hit me), thus it's rare to need my seat belt. I've avoided potentially lethal incidents (thank God) twice with 4 attackers. The limited gun is because of dress and NPE. Where I worked, if there was an incident it wasn't going to be the single mugger but probably something far worse at a significant distance. I find statements like you ain't doing your job as a sign of ignorance or pomposity.

I've been with the best trainers in the country. They all, suggest a semi with an extra mag or two. Yes, they sometimes carry a small capacity (J frames are the best!) gun but acknowledge it's limits and that it's for convenience. Yes, I've also spent the time to train up on the Js which many probably don't.

The Earth is flat, you ain't doing your job - same idea.

 

[mcb]

I will spare you more rambling just some light hearted quotes to add to the discussion.

"Your father's lightsaber Revolver. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster semi-auto. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age."
— Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars A New Hope

"Take a blaster semi-auto Tanya", said Schneider without looking up from his own preparation. "More chance you will hit something with it anyway. Slug throwers Revolvers are for fashion victims."
— Schneider, Broken Angle by Richard K Morgan.

Minor edits to two favorite quotes of mine by yours truly

 

[redcon1]

No, not really. Not when they're coming at you three or more at a time and packing Glock 9mms.

 

[mavracer]

Of the hundreds of thousands of miles I've driven. I've had only 4 major accidents (due to idiots who hit me), thus it's rare to need my seat belt.

Yes but the way some act around here you should put a 10 point cage in your car and wear a 5 point shoulder harness with a Hans device and a helmet every time you go to the corner market.

 

[trackskippy]

Youve obviously never tried to navigate the parking lot at the local UniMart!

 

[Dave T]

I'm a Vietnam vet and a retired law enforcement officer. I spent my last 6 years before retiring as the department's chief firearms instructor (400 armed personal). After retiring I ran my own firearms training business for 10 years, specializing in handgun self defense and CCW permit qualification. I was also a competitor in PPC revolver, early steel combat matches, IPSC, and IDPA.

With all that background the best advice/opinion I can offer you is that the question you need to ask yourself is not if your weapon choice, caliber, or capacity will do. Rather the question to be asked is if you will do! If you don't have situational awareness and a survival mind-set, your choice of weapon makes little difference.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[redcon1]

Yes but the way some act around here you should put a 10 point cage in your car and wear a 5 point shoulder harness with a Hans device and a helmet every time you go to the corner market.

I think a shark cage is a better analogy than a roll cage. Your chances of being killed in a shark attack are about 1 in 7 million so a shark cage is probably unnecessary...unless you're swimming with the sea lions at point Reyes, California. Your odds of being killed by a shark change once you get in that water and you might want the security of a shark cage just as a precaution. That being said, I'm carrying a J frame right now but once I step outside, it will be Glock 19x time.

 

[mavracer]

Youve obviously never tried to navigate the parking lot at the local UniMart!

Of course not I practice avoidance, I go to the little grocery store

 

[mavracer]

I think a shark cage is a better analogy than a roll cage.

A shark cage to a seatbelt is a terrible analogy it doesn't make sense.
It also either/or
Where as adding a cage, 2 more points of contact to the seatbelt and Hans device is taking the either/or of wearing a seatbelt or not to another layer of protection.
IE not carry/carry 6 gun/ carry double stack 9mm with 15+1.
Maybe I should have just said a 5 point and a helmet to represent a high cap 9mm the Hans a cage would really speak more to carrying an AR/AK amd wearing body armor lol.

 

[GEM]

Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or carried by 6 when I only carried 5 and I missed. Back to you ain't doing your job. Have you competed or taken classes and ALWAYS hit Alphas or 0 point down zones when under stress? If so you are unique among folks who compete regularly or train regularly. Different than standing still on the square range or shooting a rock at the 'ranch'. It's an empirical test on how easy it is to do your job.

 

[redcon1]

A shark cage to a seatbelt is a terrible analogy it doesn't make sense.
It also either/or
Where as adding a cage, 2 more points of contact to the seatbelt and Hans device is taking the either/or of wearing a seatbelt or not to another layer of protection.
IE not carry/carry 6 gun/ carry double stack 9mm with 15+1.
Maybe I should have just said a 5 point and a helmet to represent a high cap 9mm the Hans a cage would really speak more to carrying an AR/AK amd wearing body armor lol.

I live in a city full of savages. Murder is a daily occurrence here. Yesterday, there were 3 cop cars parked about 150 yards away from where I sit right now in front of a vacant lot. The cops were all out of their cars standing around something in the field. Right before that, someone reported gunshots right there. So I'm swimming in shark infested waters here and, therefore, I'm carrying a Glock. If I still lived in my sleepy little country residence far away from these waters, I'd be content with my J frame and I probably wouldn't even bother carrying. hell, the savages killed a guy in his car this summer and then shot up the church as people were paying their final respects a couple days later. Two weeks ago, three people were shot at the local HS football game and they haven't arrested anybody yet so they're still out there. Women are being shot. Babies are being shot. People are being shot at as they drive down the road. I'm living in a combat zone. 6 ain't enough.