Hand Engraved or Stamped?

The answer will help solidify a date range for a Queen Anne pistol I own. I have written about this pistol here if your in for a long read

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...earm-i-own-queen-anne-turn-off-pistol.889724/

If the engraving is stamped the pistol dates to no earlier than 1790. If it is hand engraved it could date to as early as 1750. I just can't tell either way. Here are some close up photographs.

I have always thought that the engraving (or is the correct word stamping) was stamped. But I have seen other examples of this same gun with very similar engraving that was slightly different. I'll try to do some comparison pictures.

I may well be able to get close up pictures of the engraving using a loupe or at least a magnifying glass. I'll work on that.

Well every attempt to get better pictures with the cameras available to me have failed. I'll need to buy a better camera or find someone with a better camera.

I may bring it to my gunsmith and get his opinion.

Jackrabbit1957 said:

That's a hard one to call without a magnifier. The borders where those "V" shaped cuts look hand done to me due to how uneven they are. Some of the center design looks like a stamped area whereas other areas have some minute flaws that look hand cut. Wouldn't have an opinion unless I can see it first hand.

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I agree that the borders look hand done. The center portion could very well be a stamp. I can rationalize flaws in a stamping two ways. They could be flaws in the stamp or disturbances from over 200 years of wear and tear.

Jim Watson said:

Some areas are obviously engraved, some look like they might be stamped, but I do not know the history.
When did stamping or roll marking come into use? A flintlock seems awful early for mechanical marking.
As W.W. Greener said much later, it only takes about 50 shillings worth of engraving to make a 50 guinea gun look proper.

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From what I read the trade guns made post 1790 by Ketland were stamped when the firearms of that day destined for the European market were hand engraved.

I can compare the engraving on annear duplicate of my pistol and although similar in design have subtle differences. That could imply hand engraving but more likely indicates different stamps. Here is a link to a pair that are both nearly identical to mine except for barrel length. The not so subtle difference is that pair are engraved with "London" on the side opposite the Ketland name.

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/...queen-anne-turnoff-barrel-pistols-ah6332.html

Here is a direct comparison of mine vs the pair for sale in the link above.
Mine:

Theirs

Mine

There is also a difference in the Grip to Frame transition. That may also be a dating clue.

I noticed that as well. Actually the grip is also different on the pair. The pair has plain wood grips where mine is inlaid with silver wire. I'm trying to determine if the trigger guard has ever been silver plated giving another clue.

Although the determination of hand engraved vs stamped or even the addition of a silver plated trigger guard could put this into a category of made for the European market that would increase its value significantly, my greatest hope is that it predates the export date of 1790 (probably 1794 really) and that it could date back to revolutionary or pre-revolutionary war time. That would fulfill a dream to own a firearm dated to the revolution.

My gunsmith was closed today, so no luck getting an opinion from him. I'm looking at digital microscopes to aid in getting better pictures of the engraving. Probably a lower end student model and probably a hand held version. All of them come with a stand to steady the instrument. I can see uses for it other than this project.

Lastly, I perceive that the engraving on the pair for sale is not quite as intricate. Does anybody else sense that? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

Here is another that is almost a duplicate of mine at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New that is also missing the "London". It is at:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/29609

And here are some close ups of the engraving on the one at the Met.





Both the pair for sale and the one at the Met appear tao have less intricate engraving. Though I'm willing to accept that is wishful thinking on my part.

AK Hunter said:

It looks partially cut & stamped to me. As I look at it the part that I have shown looks to have been cut & as they stamped over it they almost closed up the vertical line.

View attachment 1117178

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I see what you are saying. Here is a poor photograph that shows that area on mine at close up. This photo can be blown up but pixilates as you do.

I just noticed that the example at the Met engraved simply "Ketland" while the pair for sale in Houston and mine both are engraved "Ketland & Co." Have no idea if that tells us anything.

I'm going to update my original post on this pistol as I've made progress on defining the threadon the top jaw screw. That was a subject discussed in that thread.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...earm-i-own-queen-anne-turn-off-pistol.889724/

Might be in the morning though.

It is almost time to merge 3 threads into one. This one, Silver Mounted Pistol, and Oldest Firearm I own. They are now connected. It'd be too confusing to merge them I think, but somehow I need to link them together. I received a response from the Ketland expert and those answers apply to all three threads. I think I'll post what I know about the hand engraving here and close it and update the thread titled "Oldest Firearm I own" with all of the information. That thread can be found here for any continuing updates.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...earm-i-own-queen-anne-turn-off-pistol.889724/

Some of the responders to this thread thought that some might be hand engraved and some might be stamped. And that is correct. The borders are almost certainly stamped but the designs are hand engraved. Ketland & Co. is likely stamped. But this is the quality of a pistol made for the domestic British market and not a trade gun. It is the real thing.