M16 Vs M14

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Is it possible to like the M14 AND the M16?
Yes. I was issued the M-14 first. Mine was very accurate and I had no issues with it. Next tour I trained on the M-16 at Fort Dix. I liked it and it was easy to shoot expert with it to 400 Meters. I requalified in Nam and carried it my tour when I wasn't a M-60 or M-2 gunner. I had no issues with it and liked it. I do have friends who were issued the M-16 earlier version and it failed them in combat. Undying hate for it.
 
Ft. Ord, CA, entered basic Nov. 1967
Did my advanced training in 1985 before base closed. Was invited to work at the Silas B. Hays hospital on base after being commissioned but Gulf war happened.

Still remember jogging through the coastal fog after surgery cases were finished by early afternoon working as OR Tech, 91D.

BTW, good food at the hospital. :thumbup:

As to OP, I like both M14 and M16.

That is what the M60 and M2 are for. :D
Fun fun fun ... I remember saying, "Wow, they are paying us to shoot these?" :D
 
In what quantities? Yes I realise that the M-14 is still in use, but not issued emasse.
That is irrelevant. Issued in small quantities is still issued. There was never a time, after 1957, when some unit of the Armed Forces, somewhere, and for whatever reason didn't still have M-14s in their inventories, and in use. And I maintain this does not necessarily mean combat use. What do the Sentinels guarding the Tomb of the Unknown soldier carry? I believe some Navy ships , to this day, Still have a few M-14s on board. And there are the DMR M-14s being used as I type this.
 
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Imo, that's a patently absurd claim in the extreme and a slanderous one at best. I don't believe any of it for a second but if there's any truth to this allegation, I'd love to see the evidence. "Mass" treason for certain if any shred of this scurrilous claim has any basis in truth. Army/Navy conflict, when it comes to winning or losing a "war", is waged only on the gridiron, not on the battle field. Not ever.

Well the great thing about conspiracy theories is that given what we know about how our leaders have treated us in the past, their callousness and bad actions gives plausibility to conspiracy theories on how they may have acted badly.

Interservice rivalries are real . When things go horribly bad, maybe it was one of our own, or a contractor hoping that a disaster will lead to a big plus up on his contract. Or what about FBI agents colluding with Russian Oligarchs. Think he might have betrayed American’s for a big payout. And this is just the betrayal du jour.

Retired top FBI official charged over ties to Russian oligarch faces 2nd indictment


And look how they treat their own. Were you a Marine, did you drink the swill at Camp Lejeune? I mean, the Marine Corp chain of command and the civilians in base operations knew, and knew for decades, that the water was toxic. Children died, Marines and their families go sick.

I found a web site:

The Few, the Proud, the Forgotten

Camp Lejeune Toxic Water

There is even an illness registration section, where individuals list the medical problems they had due to the water.

This is page one: https://www.tftptf.com/63512/215689.html

And a quick question, just whom was held responsible and held accountable? As far as I can tell, the American Taxpayer is being held responsible and accountable, but none of the decision makers, nor their implementer's will ever be called to account. It is all la de da for the men who knowing poisoned their fellow Marines. And there were three decades of Commanders and their minions deliberately ignoring the toxicity of the swill they were serving to their own. Maybe since no one was ever punished, it never happened. This is called gas lighting.

This is cheerful to read, even if you were sickened, you probably will never be compensated:

Don’t expect quick payouts from Camp Lejeune toxic water lawsuits

Since we know our leaders are capable of anything, then anything becomes plausible.
 
Just a sidenote here.
I have no idea whether any of this narrator's comments about the FAL process here was/is true (See Green Link --below--), but if plausible, it easily could have contributed to the choices of Only the M-14 or M-16.

I'm not here to debate (because I'm not familiar- some of you are the experts), and am only curious. If this is not appropriate at all, then have a Mod delete it, or make the "adult decision" and ignore it.

How the U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL - YouTube o_O
 
Just a sidenote here.
I have no idea whether any of this narrator's comments about the FAL process here was/is true (See Green Link --below--), but if plausible, it easily could have contributed to the choices of Only the M-14 or M-16.

I'm not here to debate (because I'm not familiar- some of you are the experts), and am only curious. If this is not appropriate at all, then have a Mod delete it, or make the "adult decision" and ignore it.

How the U.S. got shafted out of the FN FAL - YouTube o_O
So, much wrong with that video. I think he just pulled most of it out his butt without any real research.

1) Studler was not "seeking the limelight", the performance of the AP round was the driver for the T65 cartridge performance. And the performance of the T65 was not defined by Studler, it was defined by the US Army Ground Forces/Infantry Board.

2) The British .280 round was anemic, not even considering the poor AP performance. The advertised performance was 2550 fps with a 139 grain bullet, testing showed it only managed 2250 fps, with a very rainbow trajectory. The T65 cartridge it was competing with had a 135 gr bullet at 2800 fps.

3) The first US "Lightweight Rifle", the one that competed with the British EM-2 and FAL in .280 was the T25, which had exactly 0 percent common parts with the M1. Commonality was NEVER a requirement.

4) J.M. Browning had absolutely nothing to do with the FN-49 and subsequent FAL, nothing.

5) The US was interested in the FAL, because of the three weapons tested in 1950, the EM-2, the FAL and the T25, the FAL performed the best. However, all were in need of further development.

6) Col. Studler DID NOT ignore any information on the FAL, period. There about three or four dozen reports from Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Springfield Armory, and the Army Infantry Board (which is independent of the Ordnance Branch) that track the development of the T25/T47, T44, and FAL (T48) in excruciating detail. And all of them fully justify the final recommendation.

7) Everyone else (except the British) were "OKAY" with the direction the ammunition took. And it was the right round for the requirements of 1952-53, only its AP was capable of penetrating the side of the Soviet APC at 100 yards/meters. Everyone forgets that requirement.

8) Nothing was compromised. The Lightweight Rifle was supposed to be "habitually used in semi-automatic fire . . . and only fired in full automatic in emergency . . ." In that light, the M14 and FAL in 7.62mm are perfectly adequate.

9) There was no handshake deal. FN, knowing that if the US adopted the FAL would really boost worldwide sales, offered to provide the FAL, design package, in 7.62mm, to the US royalty free if it were adopted. As the FAL performed better than the T25, the US agreed to test the FAL against other possible designs and would adopted the best one.

10) The US did not ignore everything and "just go with the M14". Six years of the testing and development of both the T44 (M14), and the FAL, resulted in just about every moving part in both weapons to be redesigned and improved. After it was all done in late 1956, both weapons were deemed ". . . suitable for Army use . . . "

11) And last, because the list of "wrong" is getting out of hand, the often stated - ". . . the the M14 could use M1 tooling, turned out to be wrong . . ." The fact is, a large number of M14 parts can be made on M1 tooling, because they are the same parts. Every part in the trigger mechanism can be made on M1 tooling, every part in the rear sight mechanism can be made on M1 tooling, originally, 85% of the stock parts were the same as on the M1. No, they aren't big parts, but they are essential parts.

Oh, and BTW Col Studler retired in 1953, three years before the final decision on the M14 was made. He is no "villian", he a man who did his best to see to it that the Infantry got what they wanted. (The USAIB is the origin of the AP requirement that drove the performance of the new NATO round.)

The US did not get "shafted", and neither did FN.

As to the subject of this thread, the down fall of the M14 was the poor management of the procurement, delays, poor quality from the contractors, and a creeping price. Had the FAL been chosen over the M14, there is no doubt the same problems would have happened, probably worse, as the state of the FAL drawings were not in as good a shape as the M14 drawings, as they were converted from metric.
 
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Thanks for the insightful posting.
Its tiring seeing the same oft time erroneous information trotted out to prop up some guys choice and some closed end opinion of whats real.Threads like this, comparing apples to grapefruit usualy devolve. The 2 rifle systems were designed and specified for different times, purposes, requirements and tactical considerations, some by presumably expert ordnance guys, and some not.
Their in comes opinion and conjecture.
If your predilections, age or simply having experience with only one of these rifles color your opinions, fine, its all you boo, but it's still apples to grapefruit.
 
I had the exact opposite experience. The M16A4s and M4s ran like a top. The M14 DMRs had all sorts of issues.

My experiences are the same. During Desert Shield we had a National Guard unit show up in Saudi that still had M14 rifles. Those rifles did not do so well in the desert.
 
I can tell you that, in my personal experience, the M-16 when needed, failed 100% of the time and the M-14 0% of the time.
This looks like an obvious troll, but I'll respond anyway.

Then the M-16 you used was either: Poorly maintained; worn out with some broken parts; used with substandard ammunition; unlubricated....I could go on but I wouldn't finish before the playoff games on Sunday (this is Friday )

Failed 100% of the time? Really? There is a cure for that.... load the gun before attempting to fire it! Failed 100% of the time means you cannot make the gun fire at all. Sorry, I can't believe that. All you need to do to keep a modern AR running is keep it lubed up and it will run a long long time. I put 1000 through mine without cleaning and it never missed a beat. Just kept it well lubed. The inside of that receiver was a gooey grey paste, but the gun kept shooting.

I carried an M-14 in Vietnam, as a REMF in a rear area. Got to shoot it a lot. It never missed a beat...but then, it was never subjected to harsh combat conditions, either. I have used M-14s under bad conditions which I will elaborate on in my next post.

Are ARs/M-16s/M-4s perfect? No. No gun is, but the guns in service today are as good as anybody elses.
 
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My experiences are the same. During Desert Shield we had a National Guard unit show up in Saudi that still had M14 rifles. Those rifles did not do so well in the desert.
I find this interesting because I went through BCT at Ft. Bliss in October, 1967. We used M-14s. Ft. Bliss is in the middle of the desert. Lots of blowing sand. The M-14s handled the sand quite well. I never had to use any rifle in actual combat conditions, but I have used M-14s in truly miserable conditions...and they worked just fine.

I suspect a good AR would have done just as well, as long as you kept that ejection port cover closed as much as possible.
 
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Hey Tark, I remember one day in late Spring 1968. it was humid, hot, and rainy...... But I was in the 6th grade in Alabama so it didn't matter much.. :)
 
Hey Tark, I remember one day in late Spring 1968. it was humid, hot, and rainy...... But I was in the 6th grade in Alabama so it didn't matter much.. :)
I remember that day very well... except I was in Iowa, standing in the middle of a hog lot, shoveling...errr... never mind... :eek:
 
You guys are all overlooking the biggest reason the US went with the M14

C4E21D81-1665-40AB-87A8-5DF3783E2D4F.gif

Because, “…..I just want my ‘fin-fal’…” didn’t work for anyone
 
I find this interesting because I went through BCT at Ft. Bliss in October, 1967. We used M-14s. Ft. Bliss is in the middle of the desert. Lots of blowing sand. The M-14s handled the sand quite well. I never had to use any rifle in actual combat conditions, but I have used M-14s in truly miserable conditions...and they worked just fine.

I suspect a good AR would have done just as well, as long as you kept that ejection port cover closed as much as possible.

Back in 1967 the M14 was fairly new. They were 30+ years old by the time Desert Shield took place. And who knows how worn out or how well maintained those 30 + year old rifles were. I am sure the M14 did do fine at Ft Bliss, but they choked in Saudi Arabia.
 
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I qualified with an M1 Garand in Navy boot camp. I was assigned an M2 Carbine in Viet Nam as a backup for my M2 (Ma Deuce) 50 BMG in 1965. The M2 Carbine was replaced with an M-14.

I was assigned an M-16 as a Navy Advisor in Viet Nam in 1970/1971. I qualified expert marksman every year for ten years in the Army National Guard with an M-16. I never had an issue with the M-16.

I prefer the BAR to an M-14. I prefer the M-14 to the M-16 for longer range shots. I prefer the M-16 for humping through the boonies.

I currently have an M1A, an AR-10, and AR-15s. They all have their place.
 
I find this interesting because I went through BCT at Ft. Bliss in October, 1967. We used M-14s. Ft. Bliss is in the middle of the desert. Lots of blowing sand. The M-14s handled the sand quite well. I never had to use any rifle in actual combat conditions, but I have used M-14s in truly miserable conditions...and they worked just fine.

I suspect a good AR would have done just as well, as long as you kept that ejection port cover closed as much as possible.
At Ft. Ord in Monterey CA our ranges were on the beach.

Saw several M-14’s dropped in the sand, shook out, and return to firing unimpeded.
 
Back in 1967 the M14 was fairly new. They were 30+ years old by the time Desert Shield took place. And who knows how worn out or how ell maintained those 30 + year old rifles were. I am sure the M14 did do fine at Ft Bliss, but they choked in Saudi Arabia.
A valid point... except for one thing: The rifle I was issued in 1967 was a thoroughly beat up, well worn basic training gun. It had been through the wringer many times. God only knows how many times it had been field stripped. The sand had worn off much of the phosphating. The rifles had been through conditions as harsh as any they would have received in actual combat. I'll try to post some pics from my graduation book later today. They show us carrying some of the rattiest looking M-14s you will ever see.
 
At Ft. Ord in Monterey CA our ranges were on the beach.

Saw several M-14’s dropped in the sand, shook out, and return to firing unimpeded.
I drove past Ft.Ord back in the 80s when I lived in the Bay Area. The old ranges were there, albeit in a state of disrepair. You sure are right about the sand!!!
 
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A valid point... except for one thing: The rifle I was issued in 1967 was a thoroughly beat up, well worn basic training gun. It had been through the wringer many times. God only knows how many times it had been field stripped. The sand had worn off much of the phosphating. The rifles had been through conditions as harsh as any they would have received in actual combat. I'll try to post some pics from my graduation book later today. They show us carrying some of the rattiest looking M-14s you will ever see.

I am definitely not trying to argue with you on this. And it very well could be down to how those rifles were maintained over 3 decades.

Case in point, We were still using M16A1 rifles that were made in the late sixties at Ft Leonardwood for Basic and AIT companies in 1990. And M16A1 rifles made in the 60's also were used in Desert Storm too. And the failure rates of those old M16A1 rifles was a lot lower than the M14s that were in use at that time.

Yes the M16A2 was adopted in 1983 by the US Marines and adopted in 1986 by the US Army. But it still took years to get them fully issued to everyone. I didn't get issued the A2 until I got to Germany in Jan 1992. Prior to being assigned to Germany, I was either assigned to Ft Leonardwood (permanent party and for training) or I was assigned to Army Reserve units even though I was active duty.
 
I am definitely not trying to argue with you on this. And it very well could be down to how those rifles were maintained over 3 decades.
Amen to this!

I think we can all agree that both rifles have had their successes and failures over the years. Each has their place. The M-14 is an obsolete design that is only still in limited service because it can do certain tasks just well enough that it doesn't justify pulling the plug. The AR /M-16 / M-4s are current issue, state of the art ( or close enough ) weapons that almost perfectly fulfill their intended purposes. Most of their failures are long past. The military may change calibers, eventually, but the basic platform will remain.

I am sure that at some point the military will complete remove all M-14s from active service. The ARs will soldier on. Years down the road, the AR platform will claim the title of the longest serving U.S. issue rifle.

I like em' both. I have both. The Bula M-14 for nostalgic memories and the M-4 ( A Bushy, not the best, not the worst. Has never missed a beat for me in over 3,000 rounds.) I'm 74, now. If I ever have to get into a gunfight, I'm grabbing the AR....That 14 is almost too heavy to lift...:what: :( Lol !!!!
 
Yes the M14 and M16/M4 both have their place. And for civilian shooters it boils down to personal preference. And I will never look down on people for choosing one over the other when it comes to the M14 or M16.

And to be honest, my primary issue weapon for most of my time as lower enlisted (E1 thru E4) was the M60 machine gun. And I actually liked the M60 even though it was a heavy pig.
 
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