Reloading using budget friendly equipment versus higher end equipment.

kmw1954 said:
Sorry but I am confused. Can't decipher if this thread is about loading on budget equipment of trying to produce budget rounds.

For 3 years now I have been loading 223 to be used in a local competition against some very skilled shooters. The equipment I use to do this was al purchased used. From the single stage RCBS JR3 press that I do all my brass prep on to the Lee 3 hole turret press that I actually do all the assembly on. Powder is weighted on a Lyman D5 scale and dispensed in a Lee Auto Drum measure. Trickled up with a Hornady trickler. The dies used were purchased new and they too are plain old Lee..

Don't know about where you shoot but at my range 223 AND 6.5CM brass is everywhere, free for the pickin. Matter of fact it is so plentiful that I can be selective with what I pick up. Yes all I ever shoot is range pick-up brass because I am not going to spend $1.00+ each for Lapua of Nosler brass.

Right now I am loading and shooting Hornady 60gr VMAX and have also shot 69gr Sierra Match King, 69gr Barnes Match Burners and 69gr Nosler Custom Comp.

I have over the course of the past 3 years posted pictures of my league targets and so far I have nothing to be ashamed of. So in my humble opinion used cheap tools can be used to produce very accurate ammunition.
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Someone started a thread on how much it cost his grandson to start shooting 6.5CM.
I don't count the cost of bullets, primers and powder in my caliber calculations but to each their own.
I didn't want to mess up his thread so I started my own.

I have always stated that accurate ammo can be produced on budget equipment and that even range pickup brass may be suitable in some places where it is abundant.
I am now trying to see how accurate it can be.
There are different levels of accuracy required depending on what you are doing.
The kill zone on a small deer is about 8"-9".
A rifle that shoots 2 MOA should be able to do that at 200Y assuming perfect aim from the hunter in perfect conditions.

In Precision Rifle Service Conditions which I shoot the Vee Bull is 4" wide x 8" high while the Bull is 8" wide x 16" high.
At 500m (546.8Y) a 1/3 MOA rifle should be able to stay in the Vee assuming all other variables are removed.
The added complication for me is that the target is hand held, it can pop up either left, right, or center and it is only up for 3 seconds.

If shooting PRS where some stages have 1/2 MOA targets at 1,000y you would need a rifle that can keep 1/4 MOA to hit that target assuming all other variables are removed.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to buy quality equipment but it may not be necessary to achieve your goals.
 
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GeoDudeFlorida said:
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Cost is subjective. In my opinion you spent far more than necessary to get productive results.
I haven’t had to track a deer more than 30 yards in years. Possibly even decades. And I make all my ammo on a barstool press with mixed-matched dies. I use old tech bullets and the same IMR powders that were around before I was born.
It’s individual and subjective. But raining on someone else’s parade just gives some folks such a huge thrill.

Show me you can make prize winning ammo on a $30 press with garage sale dies and factory second bullets and I might be impressed.
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My requirements are not the same as hitting the vitals on a deer.

As I wrote in the reply above.
In Precision Rifle Service Conditions which I shoot the Vee Bull is 4" wide x 8" high while the Bull is 8" wide x 16" high.
At 500m (546.8Y) a 1/3 MOA rifle should be able to stay in the Vee assuming all other variables are removed.
The added complication for me is that the target is hand held, it can pop up either left, right, or center and it is only up for 3 seconds. IMG_8204.jpeg IMG_7839.jpeg
 
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I think you've proven that accurate ammo can be made using inexpensive equipment. Better equipment may be able to make better ammo, but it still depends on other factors. I don't consider components to be equipment.

I think the biggest factor in making good ammunition is consistency. From how the lever is pulled to how the brass is prepped, and everything in between. If each round is identical (or as close as can be) to every other round the ammo should be as accurate as possible. Just my thoughts.

And like you said, my accuracy requirements are different from yours, and what's good enough for me might be laughable to others, but it works for me.

chris
 
I have a general rule of thumb when it comes to reloading tools…

Redding, Dillon = Snap-on
RCBS, Hornady = Craftsman
Lee, Lyman = Harbor Freight
 
thump_rrr said:
I have always stated that accurate ammo can be produced on budget equipment and
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Accurate ammo can pe produced with any good equipment, regardless of cost.

We hedge our bets when we spend more, but they put out a lemon here and there.

Some of the costlier stuff is for speed/convenience. Some of it is just better.
 
Otto said:
I have a general rule of thumb when it comes to reloading tools…

Redding, Dillon = Snap-on
RCBS, Hornady = Craftsman
Lee, Lyman = Harbor Freight
Click to expand...
In the same vein I still don't need a $70k vehicle to go to the corner for a loaf of bread.
 
Walkalong said:
Accurate ammo can pe produced with any good equipment, regardless of cost.

We hedge our bets when we spend more, but they put out a lemon here and there.

Some of the costlier stuff is for speed/convenience. Some of it is just better.
Click to expand...

While that is quite true, as the OP states... it depends. There is also my theory of Diminishing Returns.

You can use a basic Lee setup, load ammo that you can shoot in competition, how well you do depends on a number of factors to include the quality and consistency of your handloads. Like any rabbit-hole endeavor, you can start to throw money at it to better your anticipated results, in this case, your handloads... but if the rest of the equation... the shooter, the rifle, sights/scope, etc... doesn't include a commensurate investment in 'quality and consistency,' the general enterprise very likely to become a victim of diminishing returns. It's like building a race engine... and running 87 octane pump gas.

Since everyone seems to think the brass is not part of the equation... a piece of 'equipment' if you will... and if the OP is looking for another aspect to explore, I'd say load the next lot using both types of brass on the high level equipment... and see what that says.

Good tools very often do the same thing(s) as less expensive tools... but like Walk says, sometimes you are just paying for speed and/or convenience, and sometimes it's just better engineered equipment, with tolerances to match.
 
Charlie98 said:
While that is quite true, as the OP states... it depends. There is also my theory of Diminishing Returns.

You can use a basic Lee setup, load ammo that you can shoot in competition, how well you do depends on a number of factors to include the quality and consistency of your handloads. Like any rabbit-hole endeavor, you can start to throw money at it to better your anticipated results, in this case, your handloads... but if the rest of the equation... the shooter, the rifle, sights/scope, etc... doesn't include a commensurate investment in 'quality and consistency,' the general enterprise very likely to become a victim of diminishing returns. It's like building a race engine... and running 87 octane pump gas.

Since everyone seems to think the brass is not part of the equation... a piece of 'equipment' if you will... and if the OP is looking for another aspect to explore, I'd say load the next lot using both types of brass on the high level equipment... and see what that says.

Good tools very often do the same thing(s) as less expensive tools... but like Walk says, sometimes you are just paying for speed and/or convenience, and sometimes it's just better engineered equipment, with tolerances to match.
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Ones personal standards coenside with the equipment and skill. What total oal/cbto variation do you accept, what shoulder variation is good enough. Your tools have a limit and you have standards....
 
It really comes down to time for me. The older I get, the less time I want to spend doing mundane tasks, so I've spent the money to purchase equipment that is more expensive than other options, but also tends to be more efficient and takes less time to use.
Time is most definitely money to me.

Two of the items I've spent money on that could have been done cheaper but were definitely worth the cost were:
Dillon RT-1500: $650 for the trimmer and two dies, .308 and 5.56... for something that just trims, sizes, and chamfers brass. Now that was steep, but if
it does it on the press as I'm loading instead of taking a separate prep step @ 30 seconds/each, every 1k brass it pays for itself.
Its a beautiful thing, an RT-1500 behind a normal size/decap die in a progressive. Imagine never having to touch a piece of 5.56 or .308 brass
between cleaning and loading aside from inspecting it.
Progressive press: $500 was a lot of money, but the first 1k rounds loaded pays for that extra cost over a single stage in time saved.

I've thought about getting a bullet feeder and a case feeder for the press but I just don't see much time savings once you account for loading the hoppers and fiddling with them, certainly not with each running almost the cost of the press itself.
 
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There’s 5 shots with me jerking one shot at 250yds out of my 223 panda loaded on a lee challenger press and plain ole lee dies. Berger 55gr fbv, starline cases, cci 400, aa2520.
 

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Walkalong said:
Accurate ammo can pe produced with any good equipment, regardless of cost.

We hedge our bets when we spend more, but they put out a lemon here and there.

Some of the costlier stuff is for speed/convenience. Some of it is just better.
Click to expand...
Everything you’ve stated is so true I had a high end press for a while that my father in law gave me l couldn’t believe he gave it to me, but then I started using it along side my LCT and found out why he gave it to me I couldn’t get it to do a decent job of reloading. Everything that could go wrong did even with replacing a lot of parts that the manufacturer sent me at no cost . I finally took it to a swap meet at our gun club and sold it for $100.00 less than he paid for it he split it with me. I now have 2 LCT’s and all Lee dies my ammo is as accurate as anyone’s you don’t have to spend a lot to get good ammo but we all have our preference and that is Ok.
 
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Otto said:
I have a general rule of thumb when it comes to reloading tools…

Redding, Dillon = Snap-on
RCBS, Hornady = Craftsman
Lee, Lyman = Harbor Freight
Click to expand...
Wish someone would tell Redding to get off their ass and get me another 18mm flank drive ratcheting wrench then. 3 months is long enough. Almost a year waiting on a a 16" flat screwdriver and longer than that for an insert for my ball joint press.
The "best" without service isn't the best. Not sure how Dillon and Redding service is but I know how RCBS and Hornady are. Both have better C.S. than Snap-On.
 
I bought a new RCBS "Reloader Special" press in 1979.

I bought my balance, lube pad, reloading block, powder scale and powder measure from a friend who learned the true costs of having an unplanned child with his wife.

I have added a few things (like a powder drizzler), but otherwise use that equipment to this day.

I only load to reach targets that might be across my lake (about 225 yards), so I am not a precision shooter, but by carefully following established reloading procedures, I routinely reach the target.
 
thump_rrr said:
The point I am trying to make is that you can make accurate ammo without a huge budget.
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thump_rrr said:
The only constant is the AutoTrickler, so that we have precise powder dispensing.
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Not sure thats the place to put the $$$ for 100-200 hole punching, even if 1 hole is what you are after. Part of budgeting is putting the money where it is most useful, "bang for the buck"...
 
jmorris said:
Not sure thats the place to put the $$$ for 100-200 hole punching, even if 1 hole is what you are after. Part of budgeting is putting the money where it is most useful, "bang for the buck"...
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I didn’t mean that an Auto Trickler is necessary.
Only that I had it available to me so I used it as a constant in the making of both sets of ammo.

My Hornady powder measure is insanely precise with ball powders.
Edit: As you can see there is a huge difference when using H4350
I did use the pistol rotor and a 9mm case because my press was set up for that caliber.
IMG_8973.jpeg
IMG_8974.jpeg
 
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Watching the results with intrest. I generally can make ammo that is much more accurate than I can shoot. The equipment wether expensive or not does not seem to make a huge difference that I might be able to quantify. I usually shoot at 200 YDS or less so there's that. In my experience the propellant speed choice and the quality/build/weight of the bullet in any application are king in your accuracy. Now stretch my distances out to 500-1000 YDS and one might see a bigger difference.
That said if you think you make better ammo with more expensive tools then it is probably true. Go with what works best for you.
 
Otto said:
“Man, I wish I had bought a Lee instead of this overpriced Dillon”…said no one ever.
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I imagine there is alot of truth to this. I never allowed myself to use the higher end stuff, this allows me to use my cheap Lee setups in ignorant bliss.. :rofl:
All joking aside, I do think that if I got a taste of using Dillon equipment I would find myself in a bit of a conundrum that would cost me a serious penny so I just avoid the temptation.
 
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Otto said:
“Man, I wish I had bought a Lee instead of this overpriced Dillon”…said no one ever.
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I think that may have been true a couple of years ago, but the Lee Six pack seems to be the most trouble free, feature packed progressive money can buy.
 
Targa said:
Amazing the things we didn’t know before the internet and forums
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Back in the day, we had to learn the hard way what worked... by working with it.

I'm not really a brand fanboi... I generally gravitate to one brand, very likely because it provides a function commensurate with my budget, but I'm not afraid to stray and try something different if I think it would work better. This applies not only to reloading equipment, but bullets, powders... heck, even firearms. Looking at my bench, I have just about every flavor of brand somewhere on my bench... from the plastic Lee dippers, RCBS and Hornady presses, RCBS, Hornady, Lee, and Redding dies, everyone's bullets, and, yes, I even have ONE blue product... Dillon brass polish for the dry tumbler.

AJC1 said:
Your tools have a limit and you have standards....
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And that's an interesting point. The greatest tool in the world won't work right if you a) don't know how to use it, or b) don't care to use it to it's limits.

My 5-0-5 is a very good scale, for example. When I'm dropping charges for my cast bullet rifle loads, if the pointer is in the general vicinity of the center, it's good. If I'm dropping charges for a precision ladder, or working up a box of ammos for the Savage 10TAC... I'm giving that pointer the evil eye to make sure it's on the center.
 
Loaded on a Lee Reloader press with Lee dies using RMR bullets with a cheaply built 223 AR at 100 yards.
Second pic with Lee 124 TL TC bullets I cast and coated with harbor freight coating out of a 5” Range Officer 9mm. That’s a half a sheet sized paper freehand at 25’.
Low budget can and does work if you put the time in to it.
 

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When I started, cheap was all I had or could afford. It certainly kept me shooting in those years where rent payments came hard. You can certainly load on inexpensive equipment. Might you want to upgrade at some point, maybe. Depends on what you want to do. Do I still load on the Lee Hand Press, never. On my upgraded Buchanan Precision Hand press yes. Overall, I have a mix of equipment.
 
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