Reloading using budget friendly equipment versus higher end equipment.

[thump_rrr]

There is another thread titled 6.5CM Reloading Startup Cost.

The OP posted what it cost his grandson to get setup for reloading 6.5CM
I won't argue the price of components because they are consumables.

The point I am trying to make is that you can make accurate ammo without a huge budget.
I was going to the range this morning to do load development on my rifle using 140gr Nosler RDF bullets, CCI BR-4 primers, Lapua cases and H4350 powder.
The "Expensive" ammo was loaded on my Forster Co-Ax using Redding Custom Competition Type-S bushing dies and the micrometer seating die.
The 'Budget Friendly" ammo was loaded on my Lee Challenger press using the Lee Ultimate DIe Set.
I used the neck sizing die since the brass was aready fired in my rifle.

The rifle is built on an Ultimatum Deadline action with a 24" IBI 1-7.5" twist 6.5CM barrel in an MDT ACC chassis topped with a Tangent Theta 525P.
I will be shooting my test in OCW round robin fashion.
I will post the results either good, bad or ugly and we will see if the results from the higher priced equipment shows up on paper.
The only 2 differences in the ammo are that the "budget friendly" ammo ladder has only 6 rungs because I only had 20 pieces of the same brass to start with.
Secondly I dropped the starting load of the "budget friendly ammo by 0.6 grains due to the reduced case capacity of the Federal 51.3gr water weight vs 52.3gr water weight for the Lapua

Cases were sizes with the Lee Collet Necksizing die.

Primer pockets were cleaned, necks brushed, chamfered and deburred.

 

[AJC1]

I kinda think the biggest factor in reloading is the knowledge and experience of the jerk behind the lever. Cooking is exactly the same way. I'm very interested, but I don't think you will see any difference, and it will be small if you do....

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve been loading on a Lee starter kit single stage since I began. If I ever get to the point I can outshoot my reloads, I’ll think about an upgrade. If I ever get to the point I can outshoot my guns, it’s time to upgrade them too. I’m skeptical either will happen.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There is another thread titled 6.5CM Reloading Startup Cost.

The OP posted what it cost his son to get setup for reloading 6.5CM
I won't argue the price of components because they are consumables.

The point I am trying to make is that you can make accurate ammo without a huge budget.
I was going to the range this morning to do load development on my rifle using 140gr Nosler RDF bullets, CCI BR-4 primers, Lapua cases and H4350 powder.
The "Expensive" ammo was loaded on my Forster Co-Ax using Redding Custom Competition Type-S bushing dies and the micrometer seating die.
The 'Budget Friendly" ammo was loaded on my Lee Challenger press using the Lee Ultimate DIe Set.
I used the neck sizing die since the brass was aready fired in my rifle.

The rifle is built on an Ultimatum Deadline action with a 24" IBI 1-7.5" twist 6.5CM barrel in an MDT ACC chassis topped with a Tangent Theta 525P.
I will be shooting my test in OCW round robin fashion.
I will post the results either good, bad or ugly and we will see if the results from the higher priced equipment shows up on paper.
The only 2 differences in the ammo are that the "budget friendly" ammo ladder has only 6 rungs because I only had 20 pieces of the same brass to start with.
Secondly I dropped the starting load of the "budget friendly ammo by 0.6 grains due to the reduced case capacity of the Federal 51.3gr water weight vs 52.3gr water weight for the Lapua
View attachment 1197503
Cases were sizes with the Lee Collet Necksizing die.
View attachment 1197504
Primer pockets were cleaned, necks brushed, chamfered and deburred.
View attachment 1197505
View attachment 1197506

In order to prevent a biased result it is necessary for uninvolved shooters of equal skill to do the actual shooting. That’s called blind sampling. Otherwise you can either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.

ETA: that’s not exactly cheap equipment on that bench. Are you using all lower cost equipment for the lower cost comparison?

 

[irishlad]

There is another thread titled 6.5CM Reloading Startup Cost.

The OP posted what it cost his son to get setup for reloading 6.5CM
I won't argue the price of components because they are consumables.

The point I am trying to make is that you can make accurate ammo without a huge budget.
I was going to the range this morning to do load development on my rifle using 140gr Nosler RDF bullets, CCI BR-4 primers, Lapua cases and H4350 powder.
The "Expensive" ammo was loaded on my Forster Co-Ax using Redding Custom Competition Type-S bushing dies and the micrometer seating die.
The 'Budget Friendly" ammo was loaded on my Lee Challenger press using the Lee Ultimate DIe Set.
I used the neck sizing die since the brass was aready fired in my rifle.

The rifle is built on an Ultimatum Deadline action with a 24" IBI 1-7.5" twist 6.5CM barrel in an MDT ACC chassis topped with a Tangent Theta 525P.
I will be shooting my test in OCW round robin fashion.
I will post the results either good, bad or ugly and we will see if the results from the higher priced equipment shows up on paper.
The only 2 differences in the ammo are that the "budget friendly" ammo ladder has only 6 rungs because I only had 20 pieces of the same brass to start with.
Secondly I dropped the starting load of the "budget friendly ammo by 0.6 grains due to the reduced case capacity of the Federal 51.3gr water weight vs 52.3gr water weight for the Lapua
View attachment 1197503
Cases were sizes with the Lee Collet Necksizing die.
View attachment 1197504
Primer pockets were cleaned, necks brushed, chamfered and deburred.
View attachment 1197505
View attachment 1197506

It might be better if you start your own thread, instead of changing mine into something I didn't intend it to be. Thanks. Once again choice is a good thing and I'm glad your methods work for you.

 

[thump_rrr]

It might be better if you start your own thread, instead of changing mine into something I didn't intend it to be. Thanks. Once again choice is a good thing and I'm glad your methods work for you.

This is my thread.
I will refrain from posting in yours from now on.
You are still welcome to post in mine.

 

[Rule3]

I will agree with you that accurate ammo can be made on lesser priced equipment but your test is skewed from the start,

Different brass and different powder charges. I do not consider brass "equipment"

 

[irishlad]

This is my thread.
I will refrain from posting in yours from now on.
You are still welcome to post in mine.

Sorry

 

[thump_rrr]

I will agree with you that accurate ammo can be made on lesser priced equipment but your test is skewed from the start,

Different brass and different powder charges. I do not consider brass "equipment"

There is a 1 grain water weight difference between the Lapua (52.3) and the Federal (51.3).

We will see what the results are.

If there is interest, I can repeat the test with only Lapua Brass and Hornady 147 grain EDM bullets, which I have plenty of.

Lapua Federal

39.6
39.9 38.9
40.2 39.2
40.5 39.5
40.8 39.8
41.1 40.1
41.4 40.4
41.7

In order to prevent a biased result it is necessary for uninvolved shooters of equal skill to do the actual shooting. That’s called blind sampling. Otherwise you can either consciously or unconsciously bias the results.

ETA: that’s not exactly cheap equipment on that bench. Are you using all lower cost equipment for the lower cost comparison?

Yes I am.
The only constant is the AutoTrickler, so that we have precise powder dispensing.

I’m spending enough on components.
I’m not going to sabotage my load development to prove a point.
I hope I’m wrong and I can justify the money I spent on my dies and equipment.

 

[N555]

The difference in budget is more or less toys.
Are you going to only use FL ball expander dies or add in collect or neck bushing dies too?
Are you going to reload reload dirty brass or get an ultra Sonic cleaner, dry tumbler or wet pin setup?
Are you going to toss the brass after a few loadings or anneal.
With the powder measure are you just going to drop loads or weigh check each one? And if so how fast you want to do it is limited by your budget.

 

[Atavar]

This is my thread.
I will refrain from posting in yours from now on.
You are still welcome to post in mine.

@thump_rrr started the thread. It is his.

 

[lightman]

The main difference that I have seen in equipment is that more expensive equipment may be faster to set-up or use. Less expensive equipment (no names mentioned) often requires some "tinkering" to get it working properly.

By the way, what is the device to the right that has the dials and switches?

 

[thump_rrr]

The main difference that I have seen in equipment is that more expensive equipment may be faster to set-up or use. Less expensive equipment (no names mentioned) often requires some "tinkering" to get it working properly.

By the way, what is the device to the right that has the dials and switches?

It’s a speed controller that runs a little gear driven motor that I use to chamfer and deburr.
It can be seen on the left in front of the blue Lapua boxes.

 

[jmorris]

I load my .22 hornet ammo on a Lee breechlock, using RCBS dies, it shoots .3's at 100 with a LPV and calm wind.

 

[thump_rrr]

The difference in budget is more or less toys.
Are you going to only use FL ball expander dies or add in collect or neck bushing dies too?
Are you going to reload reload dirty brass or get an ultra Sonic cleaner, dry tumbler or wet pin setup?
Are you going to toss the brass after a few loadings or anneal.
With the powder measure are you just going to drop loads or weigh check each one? And if so how fast you want to do it is limited by your budget.

The clean or dirty brass brass issue is a contentious one.
Many people including Walkalong do not wash their brass because squeaky clean brass grips the bullet tighter.
I brushed the necks in both sets of brass to keep the test comparable.
I also didn’t anneal the necks because the brass was only once fired.
I anneal my Lapua brass every second loading.
On my Lapua 308 brass I got 24 firings out of it and I only replaced it when I replaced the barrel.
If you don’t blow out the primer pockets brass can last the life of the barrel and maybe more.

Lapua 6.5CM brass is now $200 in Canada it would be stupid not to anneal.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There is a 1 grain water weight difference between the Lapua (52.3) and the Federal (51.3).

We will see what the results are.

If there is interest, I can repeat the test with only Lapua Brass and Hornady 147 grain EDM bullets, which I have plenty of.

Lapua Federal

39.6
39.9 38.9
40.2 39.2
40.5 39.5
40.8 39.8
41.1 40.1
41.4 40.4
41.7

Yes I am.
The only constant is the AutoTrickler, so that we have precise powder dispensing.

I’m spending enough on components.
I’m not going to sabotage my load development to prove a point.
I hope I’m wrong and I can justify the money I spent on my dies and equipment.

Cost is subjective. In my opinion you spent far more than necessary to get productive results.
I haven’t had to track a deer more than 30 yards in years. Possibly even decades. And I make all my ammo on a barstool press with mixed-matched dies. I use old tech bullets and the same IMR powders that were around before I was born.
It’s individual and subjective. But raining on someone else’s parade just gives some folks such a huge thrill.

Show me you can make prize winning ammo on a $30 press with garage sale dies and factory second bullets and I might be impressed.

 

[bullseye308]

I am very budget conscious and have always been. When I got started loading in 89 I got a Lee “O” press anniversary kit for my birthday. ~10 years later I lost it all in a fire and bought a Reloader press and a Loadmaster. I used the Loadmaster for a couple years and since have exclusively used the Reloader, and now the Reloader breech lock. I’m still shooting 16k rounds a year on average and am not looking to upgrade. All my dies are Lee, almost everything is Lee with the exception of a Hornady electric powder dispenser, and a RCBS manual trickler. All my casting equipment is Lee, the cheap 4# pot and a bunch of 2 cavity molds and Lee sizers.

There were times when I could have bought Dillon, but chose to put that into powder and primers instead. I enjoy the process and have the time. I load for each gun to get the most accurate round I can, I make 4 loads in 9mm for 6 9mm pistols and an AR-9. I’m loading 3 different 223/556 loads for 3 different rifles. I am very happy with the quality of the rounds I produce and their accuracy. To beat it all, I have actually saved tens of thousands of dollars reloading on cheap equipment.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I'm going to be watching this thread, I have been wondering if I could load more accurate ammo in a co-ax press than I currently load in my RCBS rock chucker or LCT. I only have one "competition" die set and it is for 30-06 and I mostly use the Lee set I have for loading for the Garands and only use the other set for the Rem 700, Savage 110, and Howa 1500s.

 

[thump_rrr]

First update from the range.
Reception is sketchy.
I have to stand on 1 leg and hold my arms out to get a signal.
One more pic with the data to come
Bronze sharpie around first string shots.
Raw data





Round #2
X marks second rounds

 

[thump_rrr]

Final Round
When I get home I will sort the data into a more legible form.
The LabRadar shut off due to low battery so I missed 1 shot.
I will separate the pictures of the left and right targets to get better resolution.
I will also place a quarter or a 1” dot on the page for scale.
Overall I don’t think the cheap setup did too badly.
I don’t see any signs of pressure on the primers so I think the velocity could easily be increased some more.

Edit: Temperature 45°F, Barometer 30.27”hg. Elevation 229’, Density Altitude -190’

 

[Charlie98]

Different brass and different powder charges. I do not consider brass "equipment"

But raining on someone else’s parade just gives some folks such a huge thrill.

To be quite honest, I've had the very same questions the OP is trying to iron out... I don't understand the tendency to savage the OP. He has a theory, his is working through his testing... the way HE wants to run his test. You can either agree or disagree with his results, and you can even start a thread and do your own qualitative analysis. I'm interested in what shakes out, regardless of the methodology.

As far as the brass, the brass is as much a 'durable component' as the press or dies are... they are reused in much the same manner, bullets, powder, and primers are not. I've often opined if Lapua brass is worth the money vs my RP brass, it's the general consensus that Lapua brass is more consistent than most generic brass... so, yes, brass should be considered part of the equation.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I think the next time one of our local experts gives the “buy once-cry once” line to a poster I’m going to refer to this thread and call them out for spreading bad information.

 

[thump_rrr]

Here are the final results.
4/6 groups loaded on the Lee Challenger press with Lee dies in once fired Federal brass were .5 MOA or less. The largest group was 0.758 MOA.

6/8 of the groups loaded on the Forster Co-Ax with Redding dies in Lapua brass were sub 0.5 MOA, 4/8 of the groups were sub 0.3 MOA. 2/8 groups are sub 1/4 MOA. The largest group was 0.536 MOA.

I don’t have enough Nosler RDF to repeat the test with only Lapua brass.
I may do it using Hornady 147gr ELD-M.

Any suggestions on what to test next would be welcome.

 

[armoredman]

Interesting theory, thank you for taking the time to explore it. I, unfortunately, cannot, being that cheap and hand-me-downs are what I have.

Perhaps some top quality equipment and doing some of the things I have only heard of, but never tried, like annealing, might improve groups.

Always willing to learn!

 

[kmw1954]

Sorry but I am confused. Can't decipher if this thread is about loading on budget equipment of trying to produce budget rounds.

For 3 years now I have been loading 223 to be used in a local competition against some very skilled shooters. The equipment I use to do this was al purchased used. From the single stage RCBS JR3 press that I do all my brass prep on to the Lee 3 hole turret press that I actually do all the assembly on. Powder is weighted on a Lyman D5 scale and dispensed in a Lee Auto Drum measure. Trickled up with a Hornady trickler. The dies used were purchased new and they too are plain old Lee..

Don't know about where you shoot but at my range 223 AND 6.5CM brass is everywhere, free for the pickin. Matter of fact it is so plentiful that I can be selective with what I pick up. Yes all I ever shoot is range pick-up brass because I am not going to spend $1.00+ each for Lapua of Nosler brass.

Right now I am loading and shooting Hornady 60gr VMAX and have also shot 69gr Sierra Match King, 69gr Barnes Match Burners and 69gr Nosler Custom Comp.

I have over the course of the past 3 years posted pictures of my league targets and so far I have nothing to be ashamed of. So in my humble opinion used cheap tools can be used to produce very accurate ammunition.