"Gangsta"! firearm buysers/shooters

link plead the 5th on me...

Its these type of stories that make me REAL glad that I can shoot at a relatives farm in WV.Its only a 600 mile rd trip.Worth it tho.

Kony,

Yeah I could so see me putting 3-12" w3 JL audio subs with a 1000w rockford fostgate amp in my little hatchback ! I would have to drive around with my range hearing protection on ..... Besides, I like to feel and hear the bass, not be beaten into submission by it ! Just enough bass to compete with the road noise/wind while making my slow jams sound smoothe as silk and the rap songs beat like I've got someone tied up trying to escape my trunk !!

Yeah I could so see me putting 3-12" w3 JL audio subs with a 1000w rockford fostgate amp in my little hatchback ! I would have to drive around with my range hearing protection on

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Wimp!

Besides, I like to feel and hear the bass, not be beaten into submission by it ... Just enough bass to compete with the road noise/wind while making my slow jams sound smoothe as silk and the rap songs beat like I've got someone tied up trying to escape my trunk

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Agreed! I currently have a budget set-up myself ... 2 Pioneer 12's on a U.S. Acoustics 300-watt amp and a JVC MP3 head-unit. Everything else is stock (partly b/c I spent my money on guns)!

As far as 2A, since the requirements are promulgated by the states, not the federals government the 2A is irrelevant.

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I absolutely disagree. It being a state law does not exonerate it from having to be in line with the Constitution.

I am under the impression that the states may not infringe on rights guaranteed in the Constitution any more than the fedgov may.

If that were the case, then STATE prisons could impose cruel and unusual punishments. STATEgov could ban free speech or press. STATEgov could search without warrant or probable cause...

Do you see the flaw in your claim now? If the law is set on high (the Constitution) NO authority from fedgov on down may break it.


-Jeffrey

Well you guy are forgeting that, even though a crimnal can get thier hands on a gun illegally, he can never use it or show it to anyone without commiting a crime. If I am in an accident, or traffic stop, or whatever and am carrting legally, nothing bad happens to me. If your "banger" with an illegal wepon get pulled over for a broken tailight and the cop discovers his wepon, he is going to jail. And this happens alot. If there was nor regulation, alot of the very bad people who are in jail now for gun crimes would be out on the street.

I dont mind taking a driving test to get my drivers license and I dont mind taking a training course to get my ccw. It wont deter me because I am Legal.

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If having to pass a test to get my rights given to me by the government could somehow result in the prevention of anyone who did not pass the test from also exercising that right without going to the bother of getting government approval, I might see your point.

But nothing about YOU passing the test does anything at all to stop a criminal-type from carrying a gun for the purpose of robbing and killing people. So you made the sacrifice of the absoluteness of your right for nothing. Why give it up if there's no benefit? The 'bangers are still going to carry their guns illegally if they know that legal carry is an option not open to them. They expose themselves to arrest for the gun if they undergo a taillight stop? So what? They'll get their slap on the wrist, be warned again not to carry a gun illegally, and the next time they're back out of the joint, guess what they'll be doing again.

Before you volunteer up your rights for the illusion of safety, recognize that it IS an illusion, and not worthy of your sacrifice.

edit:
Now, on a few more points...

If your 'banger has the gang associations but has no criminal record, I do NOT support the notion that he should be pre-empted from having or carrying a gun.

If he has been convicted of a felony, and he's involved in the traffic stop where the gun is discovered, he can be charged as a felon in possession, but nothing about that requires that there be a TEST OF KNOWLEDGE OR PROFICIENCY before the issuance of a CCW permit in order to put him back in jail for carrying a gun.

See what I mean? They can get him for felon in possession simply for possessing the gun. Why? Two reasons: he's not supposed to have a gun, as a felon. And he is carrying without a permit. He could have been denied the permit simply for the felony record -- we don't need proficiency requirements to be able to do that.

You also offered that you don't mind having to pass a driver's test to drive -- presumably because you figure that the existence of the testing requirement keeps those who are not trained and therefore not licensed from driving the same roads as you and I drive.

PLEASE tell me you do not believe that people stay off the roads because they don't have a driver's license. I could fill a scrapbook full of stories about such people killing others on the road in under a week.

So once again, you have not demonstrated how requirements that affect only those who prostrate themselves before those requirements and allow themselves to be bound by them keep anyone safe from those who flout the requirements.

The simple fact is they do not.

-Jeffrey

There is one benefit to the training and proficiency requirements: it keeps the stats on CCW related shootings to an almost non-existant level. Very useful in our fight against the grabbers.
Do CCW laws keep the bad guys from carrying any time they want? Obviously no. But CCW does provide a demarcation between the good guys (us) and the BGs. I am happy that I have a card that says "I am a good guy".

Getting back to "Gangsta" shooters, a few years back we had a guy come to our monthly IPSC match, and he shot the entire first stage of the match "gangsta style" with the pistol tilted on its side. One of our Master class shooters, who is a retired Texas Highway Patrol Sergeant and also a CHL Instructor, took him to the safe area and gave him about five minutes of instruction on how to shoot a pistol. He shot the other two stages clean with no misses, and ended up placing 3rd out of 25 people.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Too Many Choices!? I hear ya

There was a movie a few years ago called Josie and the Pussycats it was a teeny bopper movie that my wife dragged me to one weekend. It was dreadfully boring, but still mildly funny. My favorite part of the movie was how the MTV equivalent, and all the other Hollywood influences kept people spending their money by changing what was cool.

It is sad to think that Hollywood has that much influence, but it really does. Most people have no realistic idea how a gun fight will play out. They revert back to their Hollywood expectation because that is all they have. God help us all of any if the gangs ever start taking real training like we do.

There is one benefit to the training and proficiency requirements: it keeps the stats on CCW related shootings to an almost non-existant level.

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So are the stats on CCW related shootings in Vermont worse then Texas or Florida etc.?

MY BIL is a gangster and through him I have met many more. Nothing you can say or do will stop them from owning/carrying guns. I have met people in their 20's who have shot or been shot many times and their resolve will not decrease through any legislation. They will get guns and they will use them. Period. They do not carry cheapo .25's, most of them carry at least 9mm and although thier range time is not on par with ours, they do shoot often. Anybody who lives in da hood can attest to constant late night gunfire in the backyards. These people do not care for laws and will not respect them. If you think laws will stop them, you are a fool. Most of them are already have warrants for their arrest, live criminal lives, and are a threat to those with whom they have contact. If they want what you have, they will do anything to get it.

The only defense is awareness and logic. Do not underestimate your enemy.

As far as CCW requirements, anyone who has a pulse should be allowed to carry. I myself have been denied because of honest youthful mistakes.

L. Neil Smith wrote elsewhere:

"First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility."

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He was right.

People and their governments either violate fundamental human rights or they don't.

Let's not sugar-coat the violations with cost-benefit analysis.

So are the stats on CCW related shootings in Vermont worse then Texas or Florida etc.?

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They're better - nobody with a Vermont CCW permit has ever been involved in a crime of any sort!

MY BIL is a gangster and through him I have met many more. Nothing you can say or do will stop them from owning/carrying guns. I have met people in their 20's who have shot or been shot many times and their resolve will not decrease through any legislation. They will get guns and they will use them. Period. They do not carry cheapo .25's, most of them carry at least 9mm and although thier range time is not on par with ours, they do shoot often. Anybody who lives in da hood can attest to constant late night gunfire in the backyards. These people do not care for laws and will not respect them. If you think laws will stop them, you are a fool. Most of them are already have warrants for their arrest, live criminal lives, and are a threat to those with whom they have contact. If they want what you have, they will do anything to get it.

The only defense is awareness and logic. Do not underestimate your enemy.

As far as CCW requirements, anyone who has a pulse should be allowed to carry. I myself have been denied because of honest youthful mistakes.

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Ominous words, to be taken very seriously. Thank you for a raw insight into what we should really expect of these people (animals?).

You made me curious with your final statement, though. What were these "mistakes" you made? I ask because I wonder, they rose to the level of "crimes," yes? Were they really mistakes, or did you actually -- at the time, with whatever maturity, judgment and intelligence you happened to possess then -- intend to do what you did?

See, I feel that if we gloss over actual crimes committed in youth as "mistakes," we open ourselves up to having to swallow the notion that these gangbangers aren't pernicious, belligerent threats to the social fabric, but instead just "youths who have made a mistake."

-Jeffrey

I've seen bangers at the local range on numerous occasions. Some are bullet 'throwers' and some can shoot very well.

At a gunshow recently I was looking at pistols when several boyz came up and started looking at Glocks. The finally left after deciding they weren't FLAT enough. Flat as in sticking it in the waistband flat.

At a public range that I used to frequent, I was shooting by myself when a car pulled up. Two fellas in checkered headress (thing Arafat) got out and stood nearby and watched me work out my AR and my FAL. After I had just about obliterated the targets I began wondering if I should go downrange and change them or leave for the day. I decided not to go downrange with these guys around so I started to pack up. They came over and started to ask what I was shooting and after a while it did come out that they were Palestinians. They didn't have any guns so I never did figure why they were there. Several weeks later, at the same range, I was approached by two individuals in Arab dress and sporting shoulder holsters with 1911's. They wanted to do some shooting with their pistols by there wasn't a range for that. I suggested they try an indoor range in town but they said they had just come from there after spending $250 shooting!!

Inner city disadvantaged persons are just as worthy of being taught proper self defense and handgun / rifle combat skills as anyone. In fact, they are my client of choice. Always hungry for knowledge, most of them are smart enough to pick up proper elements after a brief orientation, and very dedicated to improving their skills. Plus, their money is as good as anyone else. All it takes is a little wardrobe adjustment and a quick briefing on how to 'blend in' and I've had bunches of them along with me to competitions and training classes all over the eastern US with no one being the wiser.

Jeffrey, 12 years ago when I was 18, I was caught with a dope pipe. It was a class c misdemeanor and was never a problem. I had my Texas CHL for years and have not been in any trouble since then. The problem is that in OK, any drug related offense automatically disqualifies you from getting your CHL.

As far as intent? The pipe was not mine, but my truck = my pipe in the eyes of the law and I was not going to rat on my buddy for a pipe that was only a $50 ticket. If I knew then what I know now, I might have done things differently.

Sorry to hear that.

I don't agree with holding people accountable for old stuff with new penalties, that's for sure. And the same goes for disqualifying gun owners for decades-old domestic violence issues. I don't defend those who raise a hand to a spouse, but I also think it is wrong to punish people now with new punishments that were not in place when the act was committed.

-Jeffrey

The finally left after deciding they weren't FLAT enough. Flat as in sticking it in the waistband flat.

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I said the same thing when I handled my first glock

I sell a lot of guys on Star Firestars for their excellent 'homie style' waistband fit and heavy caliber firepower. Not exactly something they can get for 80 bucks in an alley, but most of them don't have a problem if the 'gat' in question is between 80 and 800. The ones who wear baggier clothes can conceal much larger weaponry, cut down shotguns are common.

The 'jaw dropping' award goes to the fellow who, after hearing my explanation of why a heavier rifle cartridge is overall a better idea for combat than a 5.56 although 5.56 does have it's merits (I explained that assault rifle cartridges exist to fulfill a function between submachinegun ammo and full on rifle ammo) aquired a FAL cut down to what I can only compare to one of those Bushmaster AR Pistols. Amazingly, I didn't even notice until he unslung it from his back where it hid quite well under his puffy down jacket.

That was one HECK of a little firebreather.

Me, Too Phantom Warrior

When I see those baggy, pants/jeans/shorts with all the boxer showing, I , too, want to jerk them down to the doofus's ankles. When my son was in school and wanted to wear the baggies, I set a limit of the top of his hip bones. Couldn't go any lower than that. So he got to feel "stylish" and I wasn't embarrassed to be seen with him in public.

Now that he's a grown-up and asking to go shooting with the Dearly Beloved and me, he ALWAYS follows the 4 rules and never holds his weapon in the sideways orientation.

Can you tell I'm proud?

http://tinypic.com/2njfnk

Blackburn.... I love Achewood! My ex girlfriend got an interview with Chris Olofson for her school paper a year or so ago, it was pretty cool...