The mysterious world of knives

My advice to you is to stick to a known manufacturer. For gods sake, don't besmirch your pocket with the five dollar knives. The simple fact of the matter is that those cheapy knives are NOT as good as a pricier knife. Now, that doesn't mean you have to spend a fortune. I have a Kershaw Vapor that I bought at Walmart for 29.95 or thereabouts, and it has been great! I also saw a few guys recommend Spyderco. Another great company that will serve you well, and also not expensive. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with a Gerber or a Buck either. (although all these companies do make expensive models, the generally haver more economical models, and thats what I am referring too) The thing is that aside from being imminently practical to carry and own, Knives are actually sort of fun to look at and collect, but you have to get your hands on them and see if you like them. For instance: For me, a knife without a pocketclip is not even something I will consider, at least as a carry knife. Personally, I don't like serrations, for no good reason other than I just prefer the cleaner lines of a straight blade. With the exception of Spyderco knives, I prefer metal handles, and if I want to get fancy, I like metal with wood. I prefer a blade that is roughly 2-3 inches long, although I have and occasionally carry a Gerber model that has a blade scarcely an inch long. You can buy a good knife for less than 50.00 that properly cared for will last you the better part of your life, or you can buy a very expensive knife that will basically do the same thing, except fancier and prettier (and even occasionally better, depending on what your intended use is). Either is fine as long as you are happy, though I have to give you fair warning, pocketknives are addictive as hell!!!

This is a great thread. Can we make it a sticky?

If you like the FAQ posted here as a sticky, you can check out a bunch more at http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/knife_knowledge.php

From the list there, the FAQs that I wrote are: the Sharpening FAQ, Steel FAQ, Liner Lock Test FAQ, Serrated vs Plain Edge FAQ, Blade Geometry FAQ.

Joe

Is there a certain grade of steel I should look at in hunting knives that is superior to other types of steel? I see different knife makers talk about the steel used - just wondering if it makes a difference or is really just marketing BS?

SPecifically, which types are stronger? Which hold a blade longer? Which are easiest to sharpen (especially in the field).

Also, is there a practical difference between a hunting knife that is a folder and one that is not (other than that the folder appears to me easier to carry and safer?) Do folders not hold up as well?

Thanks!

I am not a hunter, so I can't be specific about hunting knives, but this is my response to the same question, earlier in the thread.

A fixed blade is just generally stronger than a folder of the same size and quality, but I'm sure you can figure this out for yourself. I suppose there are different situations that are not good for folders, but I can give a second-hand account of at least one. I attended a survival course at the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, where we were taught, among other things, to chop small logs in half with a fixed-blade. The Frost Mora is recommended, which has a relatively thin, short blade. One girl tried this with her Gerber EZ-Out and the lock failed, cutting her hand pretty good. But I always thought EZ-Outs were junk anyway.

A folder is more likely to be damaged (or to damage your fingers) when stabbing it violently into something or when throwing it (which can be a terrible way to abuse a knife).

Start with less-expensive knives, until you find out what sort of knife appeals to you. Then you haven't spent too much money, or damaged a 200 hundred dollar knife.

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Also, I fixed-blade can be a lot faster and easier to draw and re-sheath, depending.

steel selection is important and its not just marketing bs. but geometry and proper heat treating are just as important. you can take a great steel and give it a bad heat treat or grind it bad and it will never reach its potential.

when knife suppliers start selling their steel as mystery steel "our special made for only for us Super Steel XX..." yada yada..thats marketing bs. anyone can find out what is in that steel by sending it out for a simple composition check. what that usually means is they are 1) trying to fool the public into believing they have some superior mystery steel nobody else has, 2) since they dont use a standard classification system they can switch steels at any time(going with a cheaper steel) and the public wont know.

keep in mind there is a difference between strength and toughness. usually when someone is asking about a knifes strength they mean its toughness. a strong knife may resist being bent more but a tough knife will resist being broken longer. as a knife example if you take a fully hardened blade compared to a differentially treated blade(think samurai sword with the hamon line..hard edge, soft back) the fully hardened blade will be stronger (since it takes more force to bend) but the differential one will be tougher(since it will be much harder to break if done right). not to get real indepth with grain growth/direction etc...the harder a knife is the less tough it is. the more chromium a knife has the less tough it is. so a 440c stainless blade hardened to 60rc will break way sooner than a 5160 blade with a 52rc. but the 440c blade will outcut the 5160 by a large margin...there is always a compromise when it comes to knives.

each steel has a "working hardness" that it is usally tempered to for optimum knife use. some knives can be used at higher hardness so they tend to hold an edge better.

so selecting a knife by who is making it and the processes they use is just as important than the steel itself.

in general terms....simple carbon steels tend to be tougher and easier to sharpen. high alloy steels tend to hold an edge longer but are weaker and harder to sharpen. if you have a well made knife you probably wont need to sharpen it in the field much. a well made hunting knife will go through several deer before dulling. any of these steels properly worked make great hunting knives
440c, 440v, O1, D2, 52100,1095, 1080. they will hold an edge good, sharpen well, be strong etc...some are better in certain catagories than the others. steels like L6, 5160 will be tougher but not hold an edge as long.
again it all comes down to how well the maker works the steel. pick someone with a good reputation and buy from them.

think of what order your priorities are (edge holding, stainless, ease of sharpening, toughness,etc) and people will be able to narrow it down. sorry i wasnt able to just come out and say "O1 is the way to go"....there is no one steel that is superior to all the others....but there are steels that are superior for certain tasks.

ok im done boring you now

WOW!

Thanks. Lots of info to absorb.

I had a gerber folder that I picked up at Wal Mart and was my generally carry everywhere knife. Lost it to security on capitol hill a couple of months ago and am now jonesing for a new knife.

Saw this one. Not sure if its a good deal or not.


Its made out of 44OA, 55-57 HRC steel. Costs about $149 at LL Bean (but only$73.20 at Cheaper Than Dirt ) . I think its real pretty and should do the job too.

Any thoughts? Any thing else you might recommend? $149 is too high of a price. $73.20 is really too high too. I'd like to get something similar - for hunting and general carry (I also carry an original leatherman) but not really spend more than $50. This is pretty enough that I would justify it, if the steel was good.

I'd pass on the 440A myself. Get 440C at least, and if it just says 440 pass on that too. If they use 440C it'll say 440C.

Bah. Quit reading and go buy a knife. Any knife. Don't worry about it being the bestest knife ever. Just buy whatever you find appealing and quit worrying about the details (for now).

Then start using it. Cut things with it. Lots of things. Carry it. Sharpen it. Drop it. Abuse it. Throw it. Break it. Lose it.

Then go buy another one. Repeat as necessary.

Somehwere along the way you'll pick up as much of the technical stuff as you need to know. But any knife from any quality manufacturer will be good enough. Leave the details to the makers.

What really matters is finding a knife that you can live with. That only comes from experience.

So go buy a knife, and start having fun with it. The learning will come automatically.

(Buy a box of band-aids, too. If you don't cut yourself eventually it means you're doing something wrong )

ive never worked 440a but it is generally considered inferior. out of 440a, 440b, 440c....440c is considered the best. ive read 440a costs less than 440c and machines easier, saves the company money. worries me what else they might be doing to save on money...inferior heat treating?
if you go with 440c you can get a point or 2 harder on the hardness. ats34/154cm is usually made slightly harder than 440c and still have a strong blade. the harder you go the better an edge it will hold(of course you cant go too hard or the blade gets brittle)

ive never used crkt so i have no idea how good they are. those are some nice looking knives though.

i cant really offer advice on factory knife selection...my experience in them is very limited. im sure someone with much more experience with them will be able to give some suggestions

Bah. Quit reading and go buy a knife. Any knife. Don't worry about it being the bestest knife ever. Just buy whatever you find appealing and quit worrying about the details (for now).

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That'll get you a knife like I had one time that folded on me when I was using it. Buy quality and you'll be happier with it. CRKT are pretty good, as are Kershaw and Spyderco.

I started with a couple of Spydercos (Standard and Rookie), and over the years, I've become pretty well versed in geometry, steel choices, heat treats, etc. Whatever you do, do yourself a favor and don't get a $5 "Made in China" knife. Steel does matter.

As someone here mentioned, you get a lot of knife for your $$ with a Spyderco, and the company backs up its knives. Some of the zytel-handled knives, like the Native and the Calypso Jr., are great everyday carries.

Another good place to start might be the venerable Buck 110. Great all around knife for around $30--though a little big for pocket carry (it comes with a sheath). And while 420HC is not as "hip" as a lot of the specialty steels, you get a lot of bang out of Buck's heat treat.

Here's a list of some steels you might want to look for: AUS-6, AUS-8, 420HC (from Buck), VG-10 (a lot of Spydercos), 440V, 440C. I'd stay away from anything that says just "440 stainless". Also good, but usually more expensive, are "wonder" steels like ATS-34/154CM (same steel & you can find some reasonably priced knives made with it), BG-42, S30V, etc.

Between Buck, Spyderco, and Benchmade, I'm pretty well set for any task. Folding EDC's vary a lot, but I use a Spydie Moran (VG-10) for turkey hunting and a Buck Vanguard (ATS-34) for deer. Sometimes, I carry a custom Buck 110 (BG-42) or a Cold Steel Master Hunter (Carbon V).

The point here? There really is no ONE RIGHT KNIFE or ONE RIGHT STEEL for you. Lots of different models will do. Buy quality steel from an established company with a good reputation for standing behind their knives. Beyond that, the knife simply should suit your tastes and tasks. A little common sense will get you a long way. You wouldn't expect to skin a deer with a Spyderco Jester (keychain knife). Likewise, you wouldn't want to whip out a Becker BK9 (Combat Bowie) to remove a staple at work.

Good stuff, Guyon, except ATS-34 and 154CM are definitely not the same steel. I'm using O1 right now and looking to start using stainless and have been looking into these. Crucible makes 154CM and it's a modification of 440C but does not come precision ground. ATS-34 is affordable but I dont know where to get it since Admiral is horrible and Crucible doesn't carry it. S30V is a great steel but costs over twice what ATS-34 does.

Where did you find that out about 154CM ?
I haven't looked at the spec sheets to confirm it, but my understanding has always been that 154CM is the U.S. equivalent of ATS34. ATS 34 is made by hitachi, and was at one time a much cleaner steel than 154CM due to the vacuum melting process. They've got 154CM fixed now and its supposed to be just as good and is gaining popularity. If you look around, you can actually find benchmade knives that use ATS34 and 154CM on the same model, depending on what time in the production run it was made.

Take a look here:

http://www.hayesknives.com/steels.html

154CM and ATS34 ARE nearly identical. In fact, the main differences are a lack of phosphorous and sulfur in the 154CM which I think some people would consider to be an advantage. You can also see that 440C is a very different animal all together.

Not tryin to be a jerk or start an argument, just trying to clear things up, as I'd never heard that about 154CM before

From Crucible's sheet on knifemaking steels:

154CM: 154CM is a high molybdenum modification of 440C offering improved wear resistance (edge retention), better corrosion resistance and excellent polishabilty.

everything said about the 2 of them is true. they are made in different mills/countries and the composition does vary slightly but for all intents and purposes they can pretty much be considered interchangable. i use ats34 as my standard stainless. im happy with its performance. if you have a knife made out of 440c, 154cm, ats34 and didnt know which was which....you could find out which was 440c by its slightly inferior cutting performance...with 154cm and ats34 i dont think you could find a difference.

as for admiral steel. the complaints ive heard about their ats34 is it came sheared and warped...and a few people had pieces that wouldnt harden and some had deep pitting. the hardenability/pitting problems would be hitachis fault and if admiral got a bad batch i think anyone could. the warping could be admirals fault if they are mishandling the steel or shearing bars from a roll. ive ordered from them before and have had no problems with hardenability or pitting but i have had problems with getting warped steel. i havent dealt with them in a few years but i placed an order with them monday for some 1080 and ats34. i will let you know what condition it comes in. it will be at least a month before i will have the steel hardened(ats34 by paul bos) and be giving it a polish.

Poor garrettwc (the guy who started this thread, remember?) is probably throwing up his hands and shaking his head about now. He's the one who wrote:

Please don't say Blade Forums, because I tried to read some of those threads and it made me dizzy. They might as well be speaking a foreign language.

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This thread has started to sound a lot like a Bladeforums thread.

You know what though? Bladeforums ain't a bad place to start learning--at least in one sense.

(1) Post on BF about your intended task and your price range and any other important variables. You'll get responses, lots of 'em. Believe me, there are guys who live for those kinds of questions.

(2) Research the recommended knives, handle as many as you can, and pick one.

(3) Buy it. Use it. Learn to sharpen it and maintain it. Make it a old friend who hangs out in your pocket.

(4) When you get bored or have some money to burn or just see a knife you can't do without, repeat step 3 with a different model, different steel, etc.

That's about the best way to really learn about knives.

I was going to buy some ATS-34 and try it, but all the makers I know have had major problems with Admiral and I don't know who else to get it from. I did not know ATS-34 and 154CM were virtually the same thing, and I stand corrected - glad I know that now. I don't know why but 154CM only come NOT precision ground and I really like my stuff to be ground.

some other suppliers of ats-34 off the top of my head
www.texasknife.com
www.kovalknives.com
www.sheffieldsupply.com
www.trugrit.com

you might also want to check this supplier list out if you havent...there might be more suppliers there
http://www.internetbusinesslinks.net/SupplierList.html

if you cant find a steel already surface ground you might be able to get ahold of your local machine shops and see how much it would cost to have them grind as rolled steel down for you.

im keeping my fingers crossed over admiral. im hoping they have realized their mistakes and corrected them. they have a good variety of steels/sizes and i want to be able to do business with them.

Yea, I was hoping not to buy it from a middleman. I do biz with Sheffield's and Texas Knife all the time but hoped to get it straight from the factory.

I know Loveless does that where his steel goes straight to a place where they grind it to his specs. He can mill guards all day long that'll fit!

yeah i hear ya. knife supply houses tend to be pricey and not offer many sizes. you can buy direct from hitachi but the quantities are huge ive heard. thats the good thing about places like admiralsteel they buy in such quantities they can pass the savings on to us. im reeally hoping they got their act together so i dont have to buy from 10 different places all the time.

One maker says he always asks for Terry Summers at Admiral and gets good service, and if he deals with others it gets all screwed up. Maybe we should ask for this guy!