Daggers, Boot Knives & SD Folders

[conw]

Spyderco Civilian:

Spyderco Endura 4:

Kershaw Junkyard Dog 2:

CS vaquero (available in 3,4,5, and 6" blades)


I own all these except the Civilian and find them suitable for self-defense. The Civ is designed exclusively for self-defense and James Keating sells a training video on it that is reportedly wicked.

All of the blades are roughly the same length (4") which is a manageable/concealable size and not undersized for SD IMO. They also all have very nice grippy handles and good/usable opening systems. You can rig up a very serviceable imitation of the Emerson "wave opening system" in the spyderhole, at least in the Endura if not the Civilian, using 2 medium zip ties. Mine is 100% reliable using pants that are appropriately stiff (as opposed to ultralight gym shorts).

The other considerations are:
Are you going to EDC another blade for utility? It's not so hard, but I sometimes just want a nice big folder that will do double duty as long as it has a decent edge to begin with. Unless someone attacks me *while* I'm using the knife somehow, hard, for a task, I'll have it touched up with a DMT credit card stone after the task anyway. The endura are utility type knives that also make good enough SD knives, the Vaquero and Civilian really shouldn't be used for utility.

What blade profile? Do you want serrations? I like serrations because - IMO - a glancing blow will result in a more nasty wound with (potentially) psychological effects. Will equal pressure in a slice cut in most environments favor the PE or SE? Not sure, but I think the SE offers some special capacity to really catch tendons and ligaments and sever them more completely than a plain edge. Just my feelings on it really. On the other hand, the Civvie won't stab worth a darn; the vaquero would stab okay. The Junkyard Dog 2 has a nice spear point and a strong tip and a lot of heft. It also has nice balance (and G10 scales). The Endura 4 has a modified drop point that is nice and strong in the tip, too, and is easy to keep sharp and comes very sharp from the factory. The Endura and Vaq are a good deal lighter than the JYD2, which has advantages and disadvantages.

I said all the opening systems are good...but they ARE different. The hole is nice and easy and less likely to slip for me than a stud. The flipper system (and tip down carry) of the Kershaw are a different story. FYI, tip down is actually handier if you carry the knife concealed IWB (or anywhere above hip level I feel) and the flipper system really does work great.

All offer good lockup too. I feel the JYD2 is the strongest of them all based on construction and weight and feel, but I trust them all (again not a Civilian owner personally however).

If you carry a truly specialized SD tool or aren't confident to be able to resharpen a plain-edge multipurpose, you can grab a small utility fixed blade with a good sheath (I mean SMALL) like AG Russell hunter scalpel or the buck hartsook or the 440a version of it, and clip it to a belt loop. (about 1.25-1.5" blades on each of those). The Hartsook is a somewhat better steel but more unusual design; the HS comes with a slightly nicer sheath I think. For $5 more the Hartsook is a slightly better deal.

Hartsook in S30V

Hunter Scalpel (bottom)


I haven't tried this one but it is another cool option. Light and multi-purpose but not an abuser...nice for SD I think, although not a very grippy handle by the looks of it. I would go with it over the Ti Lite, as it is more of a "user" if necessary, in a similar overall package.

Al mar eagle:



Finally, if you want to get the Hawkbill profile in a spyderco for cheaper than the Civilian - with or without serrations - you can go with a Spyderco Tasman Salt:

 

[JShirley]

In the past 12 years or so, I've carried a Spyderco Native more than anything else. Hell, I wrote a magazine article that suggested it was ideal for daily carry. I tend to believe that most people are likely to be most effective with the same knife they use on a daily basis.

If you subscribe to that theory or not, I got a Manix 2 Carpenter a few days ago. Objectively, it's not that much larger than a Native, but it's enough to make it seem really BIG for a pocketknife! Whether you think you can get away with a knife like this for daily use, or keep it for dedicated defensive carry, the Manix 2 has a great, secure grip, efficient sturdy blade, and one of the very strongest blade locking systems ever made.

(Manix 2 Carpenter, Manix 2 S30V, or with less expensive but decent 154CM steel- one of the great bargains in folders.)

 

[AStone]

Conwict, you got my attention with the Civilian. I've been reading pages and watching videos about it all day (during breaks).

Here's one discussion about it on Spyderco forum. Here's a THR thread about it. There are tons of videos out there.

Very interesting alternative. I understand the difference between it and a dagger. This adds a new dimension to the discussion.

 

[JShirley]

The Civilian is a defensive knife for those who know nothing about knife fighting.

 

[hso]

Sal Glesser designed the Civilian specifically so that no more than 30 minutes worth of training would be required for a police officer to learn to use it to retain a weapon or force an attacker off of the officer. It has a very specific and narrow use.

 

[AStone]

Very interesting. I hope to hear/read more about these knives.

In particular, what are those "very specific and narrow use"s?

I'm a fan of multiple tools in my box, as long as they're small.
Sometimes I want a hammer, sometimes a specialized tool.

Same for knives, it seems.

 

[7X57chilmau]

The Citizen is designed exclusively to slash unarmoured flesh. Its blade profile is optimized for this, with a very thin, raked tip. Any more than the lightest utility use is likely to result in at least tip breakage. The rake also makes most general usage awkward, at least.

It's a single purpose tool. It does this one purpose probably a bit better than the average similar size utility folder, but has been rendered almost useless for the more common tasks you or I would have for a knife.

It is compromised to such an extent that the warranty excludes utility use.

That is telling.

J

 

[AStone]

Makes sense.

And yeah, nearly every video I watched last night showed that little tag about warranty violations for utility use.

So, I guess this is my question, now: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a dagger over one of these?

Or, let's make that even more broad if you want: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a knife of any kind over one of these with a blade length the same as the civilian (4-1/8") for SD. (I'm not interested in utilitarian use in this question; just SD.)

I suspect it has to do with stab (thrust?), but just want to be sure.
From my lay grasshoppa perspective (says the revolver & stick guy),
slashing with the civilian would seem more effective.

As always, these threads turn into an education for me.

 

[JShirley]

If you have some experience with knives, you want to be able to stab. Slashes can get someone off you, but really only if they're not fully committed. The blade shape of the Civilian and Matriarch isn't as versatile as other blade shapes. I carried my Manix 2 today while I was out on foot in downtown DC. The only reliable way to stop someone with a knife involves inflicting massive damage to vital organs. I believe a very sturdy pointed blade like that Manix will do that more reliably than the weaker slashing blade of the Civilian.

Civilian pros: easy to use in slashing attacks with little training
Civilian cons: not versatile, weak blade tip, can't be legally carried in places that prohibit knives designed for offense or defense (like otherwise very accepting Georgia!)

 

[shockwave]

So, I guess this is my question, now: why would a person trained in knife fighting prefer a dagger over one of these?

If your main intent is slashing, then the karambit design is a powerful option. A non-serrated blade has less chance of snagging on clothing. The Civilian is making a lot of compromises to reach a single purpose strength. The 6" Ti Lite is virtually a short sword in the hand offering significant reach, with a blade that will go through almost anything. The lock and integral strength have been weight tested, and this demo gives you an idea of the power of its slash, while this one shows the force of the stabbing potential.

Oh no, the Ti Lite is a specialized tool that has its own compromises, and the 4" model may be better for EDC, but either would, I contend, be superior in combat to the Civilian and offer an almost indestructible blade. Also, it offers at least 3 different opening methods, making deployment easy and very fast. In fact, I may pick up a 4" as well. I train in knife fighting and this and the karambit are both logical choices. You can split the differences with a Bowie-type blade or Ka-Bar and a lot of people do that.

In actual daily carry, I usually pocket a small side-opening auto, but I'm working on changing my EDC package to up my firepower.

 

[AStone]

John and Shock, thanks for that. I'm learning.

You've also both convinced me to take a closer look at your respective suggestions, the Manix 2 and the Ti Lite. Both are impressive.

I've also been looking at tons of articles today on Karambits - admittedly not daggers, but might qualify as the same concept as a boot knife (last ditch).

I've been especially looking at and reading about Emerson Combat Karambit (and his training videos) along with Steve Tarini's stuff, just trying to understand the concepts of 'karambit'. I'm starting to get it, and coming to understand more about the origins of the civilian, also (which I'm leaving behind at this point).

This is such an interesting learning experience. Now, I want two knives, one of which is a karambit (even if I don't use it, I still want one). That little Emerson really catches my eye.

I'll confess that right now, the Manix 2 has my attention the strongest, even though I still can't say why.

 

[hso]

The only reliable way to stop someone with a knife involves inflicting massive damage to vital organs.

John,

There's a whole other school of thought that opines that the only reliable way to stop someone with a knife if through biomechanical destruction of the limbs by severing muscle, ligament and tendon.

The arguments between the two views of using a knife to stop a fight are endless and without real world controlled testing there's no way to settle the arguments.

Suffice it to say that a knife design so specialized that it only permits one form of attack/defense is probably too limited for general self defense purposes.

 

[AStone]

Suffice it to say that a knife design so specialized that it only permits
one form of attack/defense is probably too limited for general self defense purposes.

Ahh, now we're getting down to brass tacks ... er, steel blades.

 

[conw]

Cost aside I would probably avoid a Civilian for the reasons above, BUT I appreciate all the informed input and that's exactly why I offered it as another thing on the table for Nemato.

The Vaquero really isn't a bad compromise if you like the "fast and dirty" side of the Civilian and I bet you could make Keating's Civilian training video work with it. Plus it has a more conventional and stronger, less compromising blade structure, that is certainly suitable for stabs.

Now, as for the Ti Lite...did you have a good look at that Al Mar "Eagle?" The TI Lite has like no belly whatsoever...it gives up slashing just like the civilian gives up stabbing. Yes the Eagle is more expensive than the Ti Lite but it is much more versatile with its blade shape, more friendly to the average eye, and just a hell of a lot better design for SD or utility IMO. It is pricier but I think it's worth it over the TL.

If you favor the "light utility, or EDC suitable for self-defense" aka what some people now call "Gentleman's tactical"...I would put the Al Mar and the Cold Steel into this category...the Spyderco Stretch is just beautiful and has similar specs to both of the above.

(carbon fiber scales pictured...)



It's almost unfair of me to make your head spin, but here is another medium/light utility EDC that will be a pleasure to carry, and should work for SD. the Boker Exskelibur, maybe now the best deal for $50? I am strongly considering getting one Milled G10 handles, 440c steel, full hollow grind.

 

[AStone]

Conwict, good points. Thanks.

I hadn't looked yet at the Al Mar (thanks for the ping), but just did. Great looking knife, but I don't like the handle. I want something with some finger contouring (not sure what to call that, but a nonlinear surface where your fingers wrap under to improve grip).

The Spyderco Stretch is closer. (I'm starting to take a liking to Spydies in general ... never owned one, yet).

But that raises a question for me that I'd like an opinion about from all.

For years, my EDC has been a Benchmade Osborne. Love it. Sharp, holds an edge, handles well (for me). I've even been glad to have it in my pocket when walking in sketchy places at night. (Yeah, I do my best not to, but sometimes it just happens.)

It's a 3.5" blade, overall length just an 1/8 under 8".

But I've never felt like the blade is ... long enough? stout enough? wide enough? thick enough? for real SD.

And worse, I feel that while the handle is sufficient for utility use, it feels inadequate if I needed to use it for a weapon. I want more bulk in my hand for fighting, something more to hang onto.

But now that I'm back down to looking at EDC type folder knives with shorter blades, am I being foolish or extravagant when thinking about getting another EDC that I can potentially use for SD?

Or, in other words, would you recommend that I replace my Osborne with, say, a Manix II, or is that just silly?

Are there features on other folders that make them a better candidate for SD backup than my Osborne?

Nem

PS added by edit: I need to go back to the beginning of this thread and reread it, to review what's been said already.
I'm finding that as my thoughts evolve from fixed blade dagger to folding EDC/SD combo, my parameters are changing.

 

[conw]

Well, you kind of have to evaluate your own needs, there. If the goal is (as JShirley recommends) to have one folder you are familiar with, and both comfortable with and able to use for SD, that you carry every day as a BACKUP to a better weapon, the Osborne should be ok. Past that your "needs" to me are a bit elusive. If you want a *better* SD type knife, sure, bigger is better...grippier is better...to an extent balanced right for SD and heavier is better. But that may be illegal, impractical, or otherwise limiting and you may not carry it every day...Jshirley may or may not be right about being intimately familiar, through EDC as well as training, with your knife...but if you aren't carrying it every day (much like a gun) chances of it being useful at all are slimmer.

My recommendation is to buy some of the Keating videos and if you are still interested in blade art for SD or even fun (hey, acquiring knowledge and skill sets is fun) take some classes. Maybe spend that money before getting another blade?

On the other hand, if you want a fun toy and to pursue a casual interest in blade fighting for your own reasons (don't let the serious Susans and Negative Nancies call you a mall ninja...I do think there is way too much BS surrounding knife fighting, and a lot of misguided people who do not prioritize more effective forms of SD, but like I said if it's fun for you go for it and don't take yourself too seriously) snap up whatever blade suits your fancy

You might even make a fun hobby out of buying a $50-100 knife as often as your budget allows, testing them for different uses, keeping keepers and trading those that aren't to your taste...perhaps while casually buying some videos/taking some classes, too...I know that every time I handle a new blade my tastes mature and I know more about what *I* need all-around or for a given task

 

[JShirley]

Nem,

In your shoes, I would look for a sturdy one-handed folder with a blade between 3 and 4". I'll freely admit I'm partial to Spyderco's offerings, because they offer well-designed blades at very fair prices, with great business ethics. Some Spydies I might suggest for a dedicated SD blade would be:

Spyderco Chinook 3 (a massive knife that still has a less than 4" blade: if I had to defend myself, and was limited to a folding knife, this would be it- hard to pass as "just a pocketknife", though)
Manix
Para-Military
Endura G10

Of course, the Manix 2 I've mentioned, and the surprisingly capable little Salsa, with the extremely strong compression lock.

I'm giving links to Spyderco, so you can see more information, but I usually purchase from NewGraham.com. I've listed G10 models almost exclusively, because G10 is so strong, but the knife I've carried most is the FRN Native. It's a great daily carry piece, small enough to be convenient, but large enough to be useful. Listen to people you respect, think about your most probable mission for the knife, and have fun. The journey's the important thing.

John

 

[AStone]

Past that your "needs" to me are a bit elusive.

Hey, that's at least two of us.

I'm still trying to evaluate what my needs are, and - as always - distinguish them from wants.

I always begin threads like this with one perspective of what my needs (and wants) are, but then they evolve as I learn more. (Hey, kinda like life!)

Questions and perspectives like yours are valuable in that process, and I thank you for them.

I'll ponder them a bit, then read more (that I'm betting will show up soon),
then offer a few responses about what I perceive my current needs are.

I still can't pin them down 'xactly - that'll take a bit more time -
but I feel like I'm starting to close in on them.

Nem

 

[AStone]

Listen to people you respect, think about your most probable mission for the knife, and have fun. The journey's the important thing.

Great advice, John. I agree on all counts.

Thanks very much for your Spyderco recs and links. I'm eager to check them out, and no doubt will over or after dinner tonight.
You've really got my attention w/ the Spydies (in part because I know you know knives well).

But right now, it's 4:30 pm on a beautiful spring afternoon,
so i'm gonna put on my "[post=6429262]day pack[/post]" and go for a long walk while I think about all this.

 

[conw]

Thanks Nem, it's easy to type a lot when someone is as receptive as you are. I remember getting into knives, guns, etc, as both hobby and necessity I really profited reading diverse opinions on threads like this. Thanks for starting a good thread! (edit, not saying you are "just getting into"...was more implying that this thread will be a good info-source for posterity, ha ha.)

John, I didn't know the Manix 2 was that cheap..darn you...no, mustn't,...aagh.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah, the basic Manix 2 is an incredible bargain for a large US-made knife with G10 scales and practically unbreakable lock.

Nem, hope the walk was pleasant.

 

[hso]

I wouldn't be unhappy with a Manix.

 

[AStone]

Thanks for starting a good thread!

Thanks for adding good things to it.

Nem, hope the walk was pleasant.

Thanks, John. It was awesome. Three hours to the river and back.

Once I get to the river, in the wooded trails along the bank, I pull my Sog Seal Pup out of its nest in my pack and drop it into my lower left side pocket of my Carhartts, where it rides at hand level just like in camp. (The Benchmade folder rides in my right pocket.)

Took the opportunity sitting by the river watching geese and mallards in a setting sun to sharpen it up a bit with the Arkansas stone that rides in the scabbard.

Such a fine utility knife. Not the best in its class, and some might scoff at it. But I really like it. Love the way it feels in my hand.

Then, to walk home, across the tracks, past the police substation and through the industrial back lots on the way to my studio, I had to tuck it away in the pack again. (I don't always remember, but glad I did today cause I had to walk right by a couple of police cars.)

 

[proud2deviate]

One of my Favorite Things. BenchMade 46, with a double edge Tom Krein regrind.








And here's the knife before it was ground, with a Para Ord P13 barrel for scale (This shot shows the handles.)

 

[AStone]

Proud, that's amazing. What a beauty.

And I learned yet more in this thread today: I've never heard of a Balisong before. (Even though I now know that my Sog Tool is designed on the principle, even though it's got wirenose pliers in there rather than a blade ... well, yes there is a blade, but different ...).