Your papers,please. (?)

a requirement to show photo ID for access a U.S. federal installation

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Go re-read the article and tell me where she tried to access a federal installation; as near as I can tell, she wanted to stay on the bus. It wasn't her fault, design, or idea for the public transportation to run through the federal facility. If the Feds are going to allow traffic--such as city buses--to drive through their facility, then they need to check the passengers as they depart the bus, rather than harassing everybody. If the facility needs to be that secure, perhaps the Feds ought not allow public buses through the gate in the first place.

Also, I didn't see anything in the story about the bomb-sniffing dogs, mirrors under the bus, searching under seats/in cargo bays/etc. Granted, they might have happened and not been mentioned, but I'm more inclined to think this is a combination of "Security Theatre" and "Get Back In Your Place, Peon!"

And, for the record, I only meant to invoke images of authoritarianism and internal checkpoints, not Nazism specifically; unfortunately, my Russian, Chinese, Korean, and such are all much weaker than my German, so German will have to do.

--Flyboy, who has worked at federal installations before, including in a supercomputer center that processed classified (and highly classified at that) data

Eventually, they wrote up several tickets, took her outside and removed the handcuffs, returned her belongings, and pointed her toward the bus stop. She was told that if she ever entered the Denver Federal Center again, she would go to jail.

She hasn't commuted by public bus since that day

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I think she gets it now.

QuickDraw

I think she gets it now.

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Yup. Citizens who have the temerity to stand up for themselves aren't entitled to use public facilities (like city buses) the same way that subjects are.

I came to this thread late... so can't comment on all of it...

but can say that yea... even if they don't "compare" the id etc... they aren't really lookin fer that i don't think... they are looking for the same thing cops are lookin fer when they pull you over for "deviating lanes" or "yer right tail light is out" ... looking for those nerves that don't compare to all the OTHER times they've pulled someone over for nothing. (not nothing... how about ... nothing really...)

Looking for people who might have a reason to hide who they are... or who are shaking in a way that ain't normal compared to experience in doing these "checks"... sure as old dog? said... it won't stop a hardened criminal, or that guy who's spent the last 5 years training to blow up something or whatever, but it might stop the guy who decided to throw in his lot with "those of his faith" or something like that... something that might tip off Joe Soldier that something is up ... and heck ... could save said "no longer going to show my ID" ladies life...

but as usuall - people take the stand of "its not liberty" until something bad happens... and then its "why didn't they do more?!!?"... we can't win no matter what way we go sometimes i think... When a simple check to see yer picture... on an ID that you prolly carry every day anyway... is too much

ye haw...

One has to ask one's self - where is the high road in all that? is it with her... or with the guys on the military base who are tasked with doing what they've been ordered to do, or the guys who did the ordering. I showed my military ID EVERY SINGLE TIME I EVER ENTERED a military base of any kind. <shrug> and civilians with me had to sign in, and present a drivers license etc... even in the foriegn country where my girl was the ex-RAF commander's daughter... rofl. Be glad they don't say - you can't run that bus through here instead of being picky about showing yer dang ID.

J/Tharg!

Until the Federal LEO asked her for ID I can see why she didn't not want to comply, but the Supreme Court recently ruled that LEOs can ask for ID and we are required to give it to them. This is a pretty open and shut case I don't see how she can fight it and win. This exactly what happened to the guy down in Texas if my memory serves me correctly.

Silly woman; she obviously needs a remedial lesson in "shut up and do as you are told."

Personally I think the fault here lies with the bus service. I understand a federal facility wanting to secure it's entrances. If I want to enter one then I expect to have to show ID. That's fair. But if I board a public bus and am not exiting that bus on federal property I shouldn't expect to have to "produce papers" either. She was only being asked for them because the bus enters federal property which she had no interest in entering.

Some people here have said she should have just taken a different bus. I used to ride the bus a lot (though it was in a different city) and frequently you CAN'T take a different bus because only one goes to where you need to go.

I agree with a previous submitter here. If the federal facility is so security conscious they feel the need to board the bus and check the ID of every single person on the bus then maybe they don't need to allow public transportation to transit the propery.

ID -vs- ID'ing

sturmruger said:

...but the Supreme Court recently ruled that LEOs can ask for ID and we are required to give it to them. ... This exactly what happened to the guy down in Texas if my memory serves me correctly.

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Not quite - the ruling was, if memory serves me correctly , that one must identify oneself to an officer, if requested, with a name and address, no ID required.

I'm standing over here with...

...Pax.

Sindawe, you stirred up an excellent discussion.

Nem

We are more Socialist then Democracy evcery day since 9/11

mindpilot said:

We are more Socialist then Democracy every day since 9/11

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Ain't that the truth?

What's next?

ususally communism

mindpilot said:

usually communism

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I don't think that could happen in the US in this climate.

Something else, maybe, but not commieville.

Extreme rightwingism? Yeah.

Leftmania? Yeah?

But true communism, where everybody gets an equal share of the pie? No way.

Capital One would not allow it.

What's in your wallet?

mindpilot's sig line said:

Have you ever backed a Wolverine into a corner? Your chances aren't much better with me.

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HA Actually I have 3 capital one credit cards. am I bad or what!??:banghead:

Folks let me throw a little more fuel on this fire. This is not a new question in Denver area. Years ago when Lowry AFB was still alive and well RTD (the regional transportation district a government entity) used to have a bus route that ran through the center of the base. The answer they came up with was that as the bus entered the base a guard would get on and ride until the bus left the base at which time they got off at the gate shack. I you wanted to get off while the bus was on the base the guard would check your military ID before allowing you off the bus.

We all need to keep in mind that when the federal security types allowed the bus route to run through they accepted some things.
If they put conditions on RTD and RTD saw fit to make those conditions for using that route they have to inform their riders of this restriction.
The court has ruled on must Identify ones self to LEO but not that you must have or carry ID. Particularly a bus passenger has no need of a drivers license nor a duty to carry one.

FLyboy +1

David W. Gay said:

Not quite - the ruling was, if memory serves me correctly , that one must identify oneself to an officer, if requested, with a name and address, no ID required.

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You are correct.

And further more the Supreme Court ruling didnt automatically grant all LEOs that power, it merely affirmed that the particular state law in Nevada IIRC was constitutional.

Originally Posted by David W. Gay
Not quite - the ruling was, if memory serves me correctly , that one must identify oneself to an officer, if requested, with a name and address, no ID required.

You are correct.

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No, you're not. (For reference, http://straylight.law.cornell.edu is a wonderful site, with full transcripts of Supreme Court opinions--majority, concurring, dissenting, all of them--and synopses of the cases.)

I went back and re-read the case (Hiibel v. Nevada). SCOTUS said that the Nevada law, which required citizens to identify themselves to cops, was constitutional. The majority opinion noted that the Nevada statute did not require the citizens to present ID cards, but merely to give information verbally, or by other means, as the citizen chose. Thus no decision has been made on whether a requirement to show ID papers would be constitutional. (OK, maybe in one of the other cases the Court referenced, but not in this one). The question of whether ID papers can be required is still unsettled.

And I, for one, find that pretty unsettling.

Thanks FlyBoy, I hope this topic doesn't die.

Orwell was only twenty-something years wrong

First, how could the transportation system have not posted the requirements where everyone could see them before boarding the bus?
Second, there is no requirement to have ID on you, 2 or 3 years ago a member of the Houston KGapo stopped a black jogger and demanded ID, the jogger told him he did not have any and did not have to have any!
The JBO hauled the jogger's sweaty butt off to jail, after they got there, the jogger called a lawyer buddy to get him out.
When he got out, he sued Houston up one side and down the other and got,I believe, $80,000 in damages.
The jogger was a federal judge.
I was really pleased by this happening.
Of course, Houston types do not have a lot of respect for a law they do not care for, the DA has decided the recent change in the traveling with a concealed handgun law is null and void in Houston, so he plans to prosecute anyone found to have a concealed handgun in their vehicle if found in Houston.
The Government is a really scary thing, even more scary, are the apologists who try to justify the tyrannical actions of the burecrats , If you are one of those, you might need to reexamine your positions.
We are rapidly becoming a democracy, we are supposed to be a constitutional representative republic.
A democracy is a tyranny of the majority, a recent example is the vote in San Francisco, hopefully, someone will bring this to the SC and finally squash the demosocnazi anti constitutionalists.

I failed to read where the bus entered a federal area. stopping on a public
road next to some building is quite not the same as entering the building/premises..

anyhow, why even bother.

drinks said:

We are rapidly becoming a democracy, we are supposed to be a constitutional representative republic.

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I find this rather insightful.

So what would you have the security folks do?
Disclaimer: I have to carry so many different IDs for my work that I set off metal detectors a block away! I'm in every fed.gov database known (and some unknown, I'm sure).

The security forces--federal, state, and local have been given the assignment to enhance security during the GWOT. Granted, some of them carry the baggage of a gestapo-like mentality, but most do not.

As Old Dog pointed out early in the discussion, there is a spectrum of security measures that begins with observation, progresses to confrontation, and goes on to active measures. Each level supposedly has some deterrent value.

When does the right of a citizen to travel freely without interference or confrontation from security forces end in an era of heightened threat? I fear the days of an unrestricted right to go where you want and tell a LEO to stuff the ID are waning away.

I don't know of a better alternative that would be practicable these days.

TC

I don't know of a better alternative that would be practicable these days.

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How about the methods already proposed?

• Check people getting off the bus, rather than those just passing through
• Don't let public buses go through the facility

Would those achieve a level of security equivalent to (or better than) the paperwork checkpoint presently in use? Almost certainly, and they'd do it without stepping on the rights of innocent, uninvolved citizens.

That last bit, of course, is the kicker.

ID checks aren't about security - they're about control and compliance. Get the people used to accepting that they are controlled and must comply to all government orders. That's the ultimate goal.

Chip...
Chip...
Chip...

The mountain of liberty we used to have continues to be slowly chipped away.

And what's so sad about all this is that folks just refuse to recognize the Death by a Thousand Cuts that is occuring in our country today. What is even sadder is that some sworn to defend our country and constitution are among those who most ardently defend the actions of those with the hammer all in the name of security. I believe Ben Franklin had something to say about that...

The only difference between what's happening today and what happened in Germany 70 years ago is that the US government has learned from history and is being more subtle in its actions and more patient in its timetable than the Germans.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see...