Your papers,please. (?)

[cropcirclewalker]

Yo, Mr. Old dog, thank you for your service, I think.

When you said,

No, no, no. My remark was made simply to state that I've had a bit of experience trying to keep the bad guys away from good citizens of this country (and others) ...

It made me think of the time they sent me out off the East Coast (I was a helicopter crewman) to photograph a Russian Trawler that had antennas out the wazoo.

They had babes (well, not really babes) on it. They all came to the rail to watch me photographing them out the side door of the SH3-A that I was flying in (a crew member). I was shooting (with the camera) like a sumbitch and I guess the rotor wash was splashing salt spray on them so one of the babes flipped me off.

I went forward and got a hard-boiled egg and one of those little 6 oz. cans of grape fruit juice that they always put in the box lunches and brought them back to the open door, wound up and pitched them (one at a time) at the commies on the trawler.

My only hostile action of my military career.

Granted only 4 years, one month and three days, not a lifer like you, but I still must ask, give us an example of how you protected us dumb assed citizens from the bad guys of which you speak.

How many of these bad guys did you save us from by asking for their ID on a bus entering a federal facility.

Just curious.

Honesty is the best policy.

 

[Old Dog]

Oh my, the thread was resurrected ... Gee, Flyboy, your suggestions were just dandy ... perhaps for the Denver facility. However, from the tone of your comments (and Mr. Cropcirclewalker's) I don't believe that either of you closely read the entire thread all the way through from the beginning and actually noted all of my comments. If you did, and simply don't want to try and understand what physical security is all about, fine, just lose the snide comments, please.

Some of us approached this thread as being about concepts of security vis a vis federal facilities and the impact (or not) on civil rights. You choose to view it solely in the context of the Davis woman's ridiculous overreaction, the absurd reaction of the Denver facility's security (in pressing charges) ...

but I still must ask, give us an example of how you protected us dumb assed citizens from the bad guys of which you speak.

How many of these bad guys did you save us from by asking for their ID on a bus entering a federal facility

You're just not adding anything to the thread by attacking another poster rather than attacking an argument ...

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Dog, not trying to be objurate or anything, but

Was that the answer to my question?

How many bad guys have you protected us from by demanding their ID on a bus entering a federal facility?

 

[Old Dog]

How about asking some relevant questions? I've been engaged in physical security on military bases, security on military assets and ships for a number of years; my statement was made only to indicate that I've had experience in security work. I'll say again, read all the posts on the thread and put them in context.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Dog, thanks for the rapid response, but

I read the whole string. I am of limited skills. I tried my best to remember wherin you described saving us from the bad guys trying to gain access to a federal reservation by riding busses and not being ID checked.

I admit that I am fallible. Please paste the quote wherin you did so.

I fervently await.

Please do not assume that I am not in favor of National Security. I am a USN vet who joined up to protect and defend my constitution.

They say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am only asking for the proof.

Has it worked?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Dog, I may know who you are.......

Just thinking.......

Last July I went down to West Plaines (a city in southeastern Missiouri) to apply for my socialist security benefits. I didn't get there till like 0815 because it's far, far away.

The parking lot mighta held 20 cars with maybe 2 cars in it, it was small and when I walked in to the waiting room there were 3 people in there. They were all old people.

I noted the office was posted "No Concealed Weapons", but it didn't matter to me, since I knew that no informed citizen would try something as stupid as asserting his 2A rights in a .gov building so I left my piece in the car.

Heck, I guess I am an old person too except that they looked old.

So I walk in and there are 3 old people sitting on the chairs and one armed guard. He looked me over real close and I tried to look him over too, since I had a natural affinity to shootin' irons, I wondered what he was carrying.

Smith Mod 66 in stainless with a nice holster and aftermarket grip.

He looked real serious so I did not engage him in shootin' iron talk. I did not want to appear to be a member of the "Gun Culture". I walked up to the babe at the reception desk and told her who I was and that I had an appointment.

I also noted that there was a sign on the wall that said, "Turn off your cell phone". It didn't say "Please" Not a problem for me, since I don't have a cell phone.

I thought it strange, however, since I never heard a telephone ring the whole time I was there. I had called their office the day before and had gone through the inevitable computer phone voice tree and had been put on musical hold for like 15 minutes before it inexplicably hung up on me. You know the drill.

Time passes.

This little old lady comes out of the door to the main office and sort of like hobbles (you know the way old people walk) toward the door. She musta been 85. The armed guard speaks, in an authoritative, command voice, "Please close the door." Not a request, a command.

The little old lady goes back and closed the door (it had a key pad on it to prevent it from being opened by your local terrorist, I guess) and the armed guard says, "Thank you, we have to maintain security."

Time passes.

About 0900 the armed guard gets up, walks over to the locked door, types in the secret code, opens it up, goes in and that is the last I see of him. I guess It was coffee break time.

About 0910 a babe comes out and asks for me. I stand up, she escorts me into the main office and we do our business. I never saw him (the armed guard) again.

Mr. Old Dog, Was that you?

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, Cropcirclewalker, you are obviously a man of dry wit and droll humor ... Most entertaining story, that. I, too, noticed the armed security guard at my local Social Security office (though to digress a bit, I was not applying for benefits as I'm not quite that old; I simply had occasion to pay them a few visits in a vain attempt to correct one of the SSA's inexplicable errors), noticed his cobwebbed holster and thought his presence was a bit over the top, especially given the nature of the office's typical clientele (most of whom were using walkers or wheelchairs) ... Although, who knows, there may be someone out there (without the patience I demonstrated in my dealings with the SSA) with a grudge against these folks, hence the need for token security to deal with pissed-off 85-year-olds ...

As far as the original case that started this thread ... (sigh) ... you have a case where a women, clearly of strong conviction and ideals, deliberately attempted to provoke a situation when entering a federal installation. She knew ID was required to transit through the facility, she purposely refused to accomodate the the request, with inevitable results. The outcome of not providing identification when one voluntarily enters a clearly marked federal installation is preordained, particularly if one is trying to make a stand and not simply claiming that one either does not have photo ID, forgot it, lost it, etc.

Should every federal government facility require identification for access? Certainly there exist some that, in all actuality, just don't need to ... Unless one is operating under the presumption (rightly or wrongly) that every federal government building is a potential target of violence, in which case, as I apparently failed to communicate to you in previous posts, ID checks are a simple, low-cost, non-invasive first step in a continuum of security measures. If you don't believe ID checks are in any way, shape or form effective at all, then you either have no experience in physical security, law enforcement or you, like so many others, may simply chose not to believe that something as simple as cursory, routine ID checks can actually work as a first line of security and nothing I can tell you will change your mind.

 

[White Horseradish]

Hm. So I guess this boils down to faith. You believe the ID checks do something, a bunch of people here don't.

I don't really have any interest in convincing anyone of anything regarding this, and I am not trying to cast doubt on your credentials, but I am curious about something. Has there been any study or any other kind of analysis on the effectiveness of ID checks? Or is this something the security professionals accept as a given?

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Old Dog, Thanks, but I was not trying to entertain.

I was trying to subtully get you to evaluate the performance of our "National Security" efforts.

I am told and apparently you believe that confronting everyone for identification on a public transit as it transverses a .gov reservation is productive.

It's like the shoe bomber. He successfully evades security with his bomb. The passengers (not security) jump him as he tries to light the fuse.

Now everybody that boards a plane has to have their shoes scrutinized by some fat TSA type (yes, I took my daughter to the airport at the loo and every TSA uniform I saw was wrapped around a fat person).

You may or may not know, since you are in the security game, but I suspect that the success rate of the shoe inspections has been 100 percent. I would call it a 100 percent failure rate. Namely not one more shoe bomber has been caught even though millions of passengers get to be humiliated and have their feet fondled.

(never say never. They may have caught another one, (actually a first one), I don't know, but I do know that a determined shoe bomber getting caught by one of these fat screeners could out run any of them, barefoot)

[Aside] So this guy is walking down the corrider of the airport (not in the secure area) with a hard hat on. On top of the hard hat is a yellow rotating beacon and a tornado siren, both in operation. A local airport police, not TSA, confronts him with his fingers stuck into his ears and shouts, "Why are you wearing that goofy looking head gear?

The man replies, "It's a Polar Bear repellant."

Guard says, "There are no Polar Bears around here."

The man says, "See? It works."

[/aside]

Yes, we have armed guards at all of the Socialist Security Offices. What is their performance record?

How many pissed off 85 year olds did they prevent from going postal vs how may they just pissed off?

I am trying to get you to evaluate the performance record of the security measures you so ardently defend.

How many bad guys get caught vs how many citizens just get pissed off?

 

[Old Dog]

Cropcirclewalker, now you state,

I am told and apparently you believe that confronting everyone for identification on a public transit as it transverses a .gov reservation is productive.

Well, if you read my post, you would not have concluded that. Your deliberate attempt to appear obtuse is growing wearisome.

Just please get one thing straight: Not all security measures are installed for matters of national security or are aimed at preventing terrorism. If you want to evaluate ID checks at entrances of government facilities on that criteria, sure, you may decide that ID checks are not an effective deterrent against a determined terrorist.

Sometimes (you may find this difficult to believe), an organization is simply trying to prevent, say, substance-abusing or mentally ill homeless people from establishing residence in its facility ... or perhaps, just trying to cut down on littering or pedestrian traffic in order to free up employees to do more productive labor ... or possibly, there's a problem with drug-dealers, winos, transients, or whatever in the area ... In this regard, the ID checks are typically effective.

The ID checks normally are used simply to ensure that folks accessing the installation are coming onboard for a reason ... It's that simple. Now, if you're coming in, and for some reason, you don't have ID, but you do have business on the facility, in that office, whatever, there is always an alternative for getting in (which, yes, may be a hassle and time-consuming or involve someone else having to sign you) and conducting your business. Davis deliberately ran afoul of the posted, and known, security measures for accessing the Denver facility, simply to promote her own agenda.

 

[riverdog]

It seems to me that running federal security on public transportation riders is over the top. The public transportation folks don't require ID, so why should all riders be forced to show ID because they enter a facility which is not their destination? Not a Q for you Old Dog, I know your answer I work on one of those Federal facilities and you don't get on without proper ID; a state drivers license is not proper ID -- go to security and get processed.

The solution to this is for Denver to not take their busses onto the Federal property. If that inconveniences a few government employees who are trying to get to work -- good. It will prevent little old ladies who don't want to be on Federal property from being harrassed.

BTW, I'm retired active duty Navy. I've been in more than my share of (very) high security facilities both in the States and abroad. BTDT, don't tell me I don't understand.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Old Dog

I am real sorry that I have worn you down. I am not trying to be obtuse, maybe I just am.

I am on a real slow dial up, but I took your advise and clicked on the extension of the story. I read the pages and pdfs.

Yes, she is guilty of being uppity. Not enough groveling and compliance.

Trouble is, I think she will beat the rap because in the writings of the arresting officer he screwed up by stating that the driver and the security guard both knew who she was and that she had reluctantly showed them her ID in the past.

The arresting officer just admitted that he knew (or the rentacop and driver) knew who she was.

Down here in the Ozarks we call that........ID.

Yes, she did the unexcusable crime of not following stupid orders.

Since I wore you down without getting you to honestly evaluate the fallaciousness of the "security" concept of requiring people you know to show you ID, I won't bother you again on this matter. I think you have answered my question by your failure to answer.

It's a dominance thing.

Like the big dog humping the little dog. Just because he can.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

It is absurd that a bus travels a route where armed agents need to board and request identification. The darn bus should just make a scheduled stop a few blocks from the facility and the government employees can walk for five or ten minutes to reach their offices.

cropcirclewalker...I believe your viewpoint on this issue is completely accurate. The government agent in the original account enjoys the holstered gun on his hip, the badge, the swagger, and the attitude. See my post earlier in this thread regarding similar situations that I've personally experienced. This woman's situation is unfortunately not unique.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Flyboy]

Oh my, the thread was resurrected ... Gee, Flyboy, your suggestions were just dandy ... perhaps for the Denver facility. However, from the tone of your comments (and Mr. Cropcirclewalker's) I don't believe that either of you closely read the entire thread all the way through from the beginning and actually noted all of my comments. If you did, and simply don't want to try and understand what physical security is all about, fine, just lose the snide comments, please.

Yes, I understand why physical security is all about It's about denying people access to places they're not supposed to be. Checking their ID while they're still on the bus, versus checking it as they get off the bus, doesn't seem to make much difference as to whether or not they get into the facility. If you really don't want people in the facility, it seems like not allowing the public bus in at all would be a much more secure solution. You still haven't told me how my solutions would fail to provide equivalent security--or, in the case of changing the bus route, better security.

 

[Old Dog]

Checking their ID while they're still on the bus, versus checking it as they get off the bus, doesn't seem to make much difference as to whether or not they get into the facility. If you really don't want people in the facility, it seems like not allowing the public bus in at all would be a much more secure solution.

Sorry, Flyboy, I should have been more clear about indicating that I do, in fact, agree with that ...

 

[Art Eatman]

Arrrrggghhhhhh!!!

Art

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Until the Federal LEO asked her for ID I can see why she didn't not want to comply, but the Supreme Court recently ruled that LEOs can ask for ID and we are required to give it to them. This is a pretty open and shut case I don't see how she can fight it and win. This exactly what happened to the guy down in Texas if my memory serves me correctly.

Please cite case. If you are thinking of Hiibel, I believe you are misrepresenting what the decision said.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Like I said in a previous post. The renta cop knew who she was. He had asked her for the ID previously and remembers the hassle she put up and then reluctantly provided the ID.

The renta cop and the driver of the bus both knew who she was. She had identified herself to them before.

Can't you statists see? This is not a case of her not identifying herself. They knew who she was. This is a case of her not groveling properly.

This is a case of a person who fails to properly submit to the authority having jurisdiction. They asked her to jump and she told them to piss off.

She thought she was free.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

I don't know who is worse...liberals or conservative statists.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Old Dog]

This thread is fascinating, sort of like a scab one tries to ignore, but picks at anyway ...

Can't you statists see? This is not a case of her not identifying herself. They knew who she was. This is a case of her not groveling properly.

No, this is a case of a stupid woman who decided to pick a fight and then didn't even go about it properly ... As the arresting documents stated, she refused to acknowledge or listen to the law enforcement agent who responded to the original security guard's call, got on her cell phone when they were trying to speak to her, and acted belligerently (as she apparently had before, according to the bus driver and the first security guard).

If one is going to engage in civil disobedience, at least be polite about it.

She thought she was free.

Oh, puh-LEEZE! Davis was the one who planned to make a scene, voluntarily and knowingly entered the federal reservation, knowing she'd be asked to present ID, knowlingly failed to comply with a simple, non-invasive request to show ID ... She'd probably already paid for her web-site, had her ACLU attorney standing by and a press conference scheduled BEFORE she even got on the bus. The results of Davis' act were preordained before she even got on the bus ... Freakin' publicity stunt, is all this was.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Oh, puh-LEEZE!

Thank yew Mr. Old Dog, I see that you are recuperated. Welcome back.

I remember the tv commercial where the famous guy tried to buy something and the dumb a$$ed clerk wouldn't take a check because the famous guy didn't have an ID.

I don't watch enough tv to remember who the famous guy was, maybe Michael Jordan or David Letterman or Oprah or somebody famous, but the rediculusosity of the situation remains.

This Davis babe made herself known to the guy whose job it was to come aboard the bus and intimidate the passengers into providing their ID. She had reluctantly and not without creating a scene presented identification to him in the past.

He knew who she was.

Back in yon days of yore, when I was a dumb a$$ed sailor in sonar school in San Diego they would make us stand guard duty at the gate. They told us......."You check the ID of the enlisted men coming in the gate."

(We could tell by looking at the bumper sticker whether the driver was an officer or enlisted)

Then they said, "Just waive the officers through with a snappy salute."

Sure, you can hassle us enlisted men, that's what's you do, but, listen up, a citizen is not enlisted. The citizen is she, whom you statists are here to serve.

If it was Hillary who was asked to provide the ID there would be hell to pay.

If it was Dubya asked to present his ID there would be hell to pay.

You statists need to remember.......Hillary and Dubya are public servents. They are not royalty.

They are employees of us, the citizens.

puh-LEEZE! Try and remember your station.

 

[fjolnirsson]

And I well remember the days before metal detectors and armed security at the doors of our federal buildings. It's a different world.

It's a different world, all right. It's a different world, because the PTB want it to be a different world. All these "security" measures? 99% are just feel good measures. We aren't a bit safer than we were before 9/11. In fact, I feel we are less safe, due to these measures.
I love the polar bear hardhat analogy.

 

[riverdog]

Yep, Federal rentacops going through the motions to give the appearance of security, but not checking names against any list (the first time she rode the bus) and giving her a pass the next couple times she "forgot" her ID. Either you need ID or you don't and those few times she went through the checkpoint without ID means she didn't really need it.

Take it to a jury, I'm sure the ACLU would love another soapbox. Meanwhile reroute the bus to avoid the stop on Federal property.

 

[Manedwolf]

This will get easier once she has been "chipped". She won't have to show ID, they should be able to read her ID from outside the bus and speed this process up. It'll make us all safer and if our President - the greatest one of our time - doesn't have to worry about who is on that bus he can concentrate on catching Bin Laden.

Bin who?

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
4/8/02

Oh, yeah, right, right..the guy who DID 9/11 four years ago... oh, right, he's still alive instead of in bullet-riddled pieces. Why's that, again?

 

[Manedwolf]

It's a different world, all right. It's a different world, because the PTB want it to be a different world. All these "security" measures? 99% are just feel good measures. We aren't a bit safer than we were before 9/11. In fact, I feel we are less safe, due to these measures.
I love the polar bear hardhat analogy.

If you want to see how "secure" we are, go down to your local seaport and see the massive container ships of thousands of cargo containers from nowhereistan and the people's republic of tinpot and wherever.

Unchecked.

There's a cautionary film on DVD out there called "Last Best Chance" that explains how easy it would be for someone to get a simple gun-type uranium collision device (like the Hiroshima bomb) the size of a small car's transmission into the country via that sort of route. Scary.