Back to the primary mission.....

It would be nice to have a dedicated THR emergency preparedness/planning forum, as I care what fellow THR members may have to share in this regard and enjoy the "High Road" civility here.

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All things considered...

Leading Causes of Unintentional Injury Deaths
United States, 2001
Source: National Safety Council

Motor Vehicle: 42,900
Poisoning: 14,500
Falls: 14,200

Official number that died on 9-11-01 (died from the attack, that is): 2,986.

My point is that almost twenty-four times as many people died from "everyday" causes during that year than from the terror attacks.
Quite a social situation, huh? An all-out war (or two) has been declared in the wake of that tragedy, however the only people regularly talking about poisoning or falls is OSHA.

SHTF (for me, anyway) is not about going without electricity for a day or two. I think it's about the devising of strategies in a situation where a great number of people are panicked, and things are not going to be corrected for a decent period of time.

tac·tic
Pronunciation: 'tak-tik
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin tactica, from Greek taktikE, from feminine of taktikos
1 : a device for accomplishing an end

Take, for example, Cosmoline's Earthquake/SHTF Kit (photos) thread. In the opening post, he states that "The idea behind it is to have a kit that can be transported fairly easily away from the apartment to the truck or to a safe location, or alternately a kit that can be set up on-site if the building is intact and sound." This certainly demonstrates that his SHTF kit is a device for accomplishing an end. This logic can easily be applied to a number of threads pertaining to "SHTF" except, of course, those discussing supernatural foes.

Long story short: I believe that discussions pertaining to emergency preparedness are an integral part of this sub-forum. Sharing how we try to plan for unusual and difficult situations is, undoubtedly, emergency preparedness. Even CPR and "Practical Handgunning 1" courses are emergency preparedness.

Or is the term "SHTF," being outdated and somewhat crude (funny though the immediate mental image may be) the problem? I'm sure that in the clearest sense, Art's Grammaw wouldn't approve of the acronym. Maybe if we called it "events far beyond our control" or "uncontrollable acts of Mother Nature" or some other Politically Correct term. And you know how many members feel about political correctness.

Or is it something else entirely?

Well shoot, since I'm the miscreant who started two of the links you posted I'm pretty much obligated to say something.

It's not my website and I don't pay the bills, so in one sense I have no right to complain. I get that part of it. At the same time, I like the site and I want to see it live up to its potential. In my mind, allowing "preparedness" threads is consistent with the underlying philosophy of this board, which seems to be that people have a fundamental right to protect themselves against threats.

Management wants a more narrow focus, I'd prefer a slightly broader one, I lose, that's fine.

But just because I said I would in one of those earlier threads, do you suppose there's any chance we can change the name of this section to "Strategies, Survival and Tactics" and encourage posts that will help members to stay alive if something bad happens?

It might be a good idea to add a forum for "RANTING", and that would be a "catch-all". The rules would have to include conditions of "tolerance", "personal bashing" and the other general rules of conduct, but it might allow THR members to "ventilate" a bit without violating the "guns ONLY" theme.

It might be a good idea to add a forum for "RANTING", and that would be a "catch-all". The rules would have to include conditions of "tolerance", "personal bashing" and the other general rules of conduct, but it might allow THR members to "ventilate" a bit without violating the "guns ONLY" theme.

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THR has been there and done that with the old Roundtable forum. As you can tell since that forum no longer exists, things didn't work out quite so well. Oleg gave it a try once - I doubt it'll happen again.

I like a good SHTF/TEOTWAWKI thread as much as anybody, but I agree with Jeff. Let's get back to the original intent.

If I might add a comment .... until just recently, I spent much of my time over on ("brand-x"- tech forums mostly), since I've always had an interest in the 1911. They have a similar forum, that I had become a reader of / contributor to. Their forums however, have degenerated to the point where it could be called a free-for-all .... there doesn't seem to be any 'policing', whatsoever. Constant "name-calling .... bashing", etc.
The High Road is a site that I've grown to enjoy, and have acquired a good deal of respect for - due to the integrity; of both its contributors, staff, and their knowledge. Also that the moderators promptly 'deal' with individuals, who step over-the-line. I realize that this site is primarily intended for the discussion of firearms .... their use; maintenance of, etc. I've spent some time on the "S & T" forum, and I felt compelled to respond. Some of the subject matter, may be a bit "off topic" (as defined), however there are only so many questions and / or answers, that can directly involve guns. A person could probably do a search, and find almost any answer to any "gun" question, without having to make a new post. That would make for a pretty dull forum.
I just took a quick look at the THR's "Hunting" forum ....they were discussing property rights, trespassing laws, and the ethics of shooting an animal in a tree .... not a word, or question about gun types, manufacturers, calibers etc. - wouldn't this be considered "off topic"? These aren't topics related "directly" to firearms either.
I think regardless of the category, it would be difficult to discuss "only" issues that dealt with firearm questions/comments exclusively, without addressing peripheral issues as well.
If I may make a point, I believe that particularly in these times, where unprecedented things are happening - changes taking place, not only in this country, but around the world - and not always for the better ... that maybe THR could also "change and adapt", as the needs of your members are changing, and we have to adapt to the changes around us. I realize this may not always be "politically correct" - I hope this isn't THR's only concern.
I'll agree that if someone wants to head off for the boonies, few of us will be interested in questions pertaining to the raising of chickens .... or how deep to plant their cucumber seeds, but as far as the knowledge necessary to keep ourselves, and family members alive, in this ass-backward, upside-down, society, this 'system' of ours has forced us to exist in .... by the use of firearms, tactics, strategies, & whatever, I think you'll find due to the number of folks that have shown interest in this aspect of the S & T forum, this may well be worth a second look .... if not in this location, someplace else, under a different name.
BTW, I don't think "RANTING" would be an appropriate name for any forum.

change & adapt

Shotgun12 said:

If I may make a point, I believe that particularly in these times, where unprecedented things are happening - changes taking place, not only in this country, but around the world - and not always for the better ... that maybe THR could also "change and adapt", as the needs of your members are changing, and we have to adapt to the changes around us.

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Well said, Shotgun12.

As an evolutionary biologist, I resonate with your words 'change and adapt'.

With much respect for Jeff & the other fine THR moderators (which, as I've made it abundantly clear in recent months, help keep me on this fine forum), I confess to some mixed feelings about this sticky dictum.

While I fully respect and honor Jeff's thread, and understand his motivation (let's stick to the prime directive), simultaneously I have to agree with Dylan: the times, they are a changin'.

I'll confess that when I first read Jeff's post, I felt it to be a bit ...um, heavy handed. It seems to me that in other subforums, there are threads - as Shotgun12 points out - that are a bit, um, off topic, not directly dealing with the primary mission of THR.

Yet, since Jeff is one of the hall monitors of S&T, I acknowledged that he has a role to play in guiding it's direction. I honor that.

Yet still, given that so many members, including, I emphasize, moderators, have contributed to SHTF threads in recent months, AND given that there is even a thread entitled 'What's up with all the SHTF threads' in which many members have explained their interest in such information in these increasingly troubled times, characterized by such phenomena as Katrina, Rita & Wilma ... well, I can't help but think that THR plays an important role in helping our members prepare for such things.

I've also wondered: what's so different from SHTF described as an aborted ostensible hold up attempt in a store (see SM's thread) than prepping for something bigger (earthquakes, hurricanes, etc), given that both involve guns?

No one pretends that prepping for Katrina is gun-less, after all.

OK, so I'm not trying to stir up trouble here. I truly respect THR. If the majority opinion of members is that we should cut back on SHTF/TEOTWAWKI threads, I'll go along. Goodness knows, I've got lots and lots and lots of pure gun questions about my new 870P, CZ 452 & SW 642, let alone my Kahr K9. I can benefit greatly on this forum from info about those tools.

Not to mention my SOG Seal Pup & the Benchmade Osborne. Yes, sir.

But, speaking only for myself, the spice, the chile, the intrigue that flavors those discussions is the THR discussions about SHTF/TEOTWAWKI.

Hypothetical? Sure.

Do I hope they never happen? Yes.

Do I value the knowledge that I gain from such threads offered by the best and the brightest on the Internet? (A not so veiled reference to THR members) Yes.

Just thinking out loud here.

Even if there's never another SHTF thread on THR (an unlikely event), I'll still stay, read, and contribute.

But I sincerely hope that THR can change and adapt to these evolving times, and find a place of comfort with and support for SHTF & TEOTWAWKI threads.

Best,

Nem

Welcome to The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet, a standard set by the discussion board The Firing Line from 1998-2002.

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Since I was referenced ...
I actually wrote something earlier in regard to this very topic Primary Mission.

Mine was titled One cannot shoot what they cannot see --sage advice from Misseldine and how MY objective was to NOT be seen so I would NOT get shot.
I deleted the document on Word...I'll think about it.

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WE do not need anymore forums specific to specific areas. In the event a situation occurs - such as the Hurricanes - having threads stickied to allow folks to share is fine. Having these stickied allows special needs to be addressed - such as Preacherman and Denny Shared. In times of need folks step up and do the right thing. THR/ TFL and similar always have, always will. Special Forums are not needed to accomplish this.
We do the same with special Legislative Matters.
We have a search feature, these subjects of various threads will be there - do a search.

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Here is my take. There is more to responsible firearm ownership than firearms.

Meaning a lot of what I had to do , what I continue to do is NOT get into a situation where gunplay comes about - period!

I admit I do not like the definitions sometimes applied to the word "strategies" and "tactics". The true meaning I agree with - more current connotations given these words flat turn me off.

What I believe in is Mindset and Awareness. With this comes -or should - training correctly in the basic fundamentals, and continuing to do so.

This training of the brain, mindset, awareness in correct basic fundamentals should transition into other areas of one's life.

My true life experiences. I had guns as a "kid" , the house had guns, neighbors too, guns were just part of what one did.

We are prone to tornados, and ice storms. We had Riots growing up. There was part about Missles being pointed at us from Cuba, and Communism was a threat no matter what temperature a war was.

We did not have some of the prepared foods such as MREs, we did have some "C Rations". We didn't have all these fancy newfangled materials and such either.

We used our brain and had continued to train our brains in mindset, and awareness.

We did not go down "that way" because folks were in mob mentality and tossing brick bats and setting things on fire. We had candles, oil lamps, when the power went out due to tornados, ice storms , or the Rioters decided to shoot the light pole - or knock it down by running a stolen car into it.

When a tornado made a swath thru somewheres...we damn sure did not have FEMA in the way. The neighborhood -err were "neighborly" took care of themselves and were prepared. Nearer communities rushed in to help, along with the little city services. I mean stuff happend "right then".

Folks were prepared, they had a plan, a backup plan. Everyone pitched in and did what they could. Churches always had stores of food, blankets, sometimes cots , somewhere to sleep
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Next time it may be your area that got hit by Riots, or Mother Nature. Those folks whom you assisted with being armed to watch for snakes, rabid critters, Rioters coming down the road - were there for you.

Yes we sometimes had to share guns, tornados, fires and flooding does mess up best laid plans.
I don't give one whit about gun control laws. If a person needs a gun because their has been tossed to who knows where, carried off by a flood, or burning - well hell we had guns, single shot shotguns, .22 rifles, even medium framed revolvers that were bought for less monies, worked, reliable and had the ammo to go with them. Just hand the folks the box of guns and ammo and shut up. What guns?

These may be needed by YOU someday, or your kinfolks. It ain't about the bling bling - it is about having a tool for the task. Ever gotten a hug from some old Cajun getting a single shot shotgun? Or a well worn used revolver in .38spl? Ever seen a kid so exited over a box of vienna sausage, a box of crackers, and cartons of juice with a cartoon character. I have - I made it my business to something that I believe in.

I know some officers that cared not one whit over the older hip boot and chest waders, and the other stuff sent their way recently either. May not be the latest and greatest - still worked though.

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My perspective is the same Strategies & Tactics used :

When a suspcious person enters and takes dominance over the front door of a business and another one(s) enter - is exactly the same as the first Rioter taking dominance coming down your road, the second is not at his side, nor is the third one...or the ones to follow. They take dominance in a spread out position. The idea is to catch YOU grouped together.

"A grenade goes off gonna kill all you folks"

You use the same exact S&T to survive in each by having trained the brain , have determined [awareness] to use exits, to get the kids and older folks safe - even if that means you buy these folks time by using the younger / stronger ones to 'delay' or ready to fight.

Employees spread out - never bunch up. Use cover and if can concealment.

We did the same thing keeping tabs on property damaged by Mother Nature...any looters that might have any ideas - had no friggin idea how many,or where we were. I know for a fact when a looter fires one shot in the air to 'scare' folks - and in return you shoot his car - he and his buds are not that darn brave anymore...always liked them 12 ga slugs...

Pack of Rabid Dogs will do the same thing as the BGs entering a business, the same as them Rioters coming down the street. The same as the looters. One takes dominance, others spread out and try to catch YOU bunched up.

I have been in floods and fires too. Water and Fire will get to you faster than a BG . You have got to be aware of your surroundings, have a plan, and take action IMMEDIATLY. Darn right I ran the same way the animals were running - their gut instinct is better trained than mine. Mother Nature gave critters survival instinct, awareness, stategies and tactics too. I am not ashamed to admit I let these professionals take the lead.

Strateties and Tactics are transitional skills.

I get chided for thinking out of the box. One can never have too many tools in the toolbox. The only toolbox one is assured of having on them all the time is the brain.

Steve

Maybe people should post links to emergency and prepardness forums and websites.

I have visited www.frugalsquirrels.com and recommend it to others.

I sincerely hope this edict is not the result of a desire to avoid "looking like survivalists," as was suggested by a poster who recently questioned the need for so much "SHTF" discussion. Where I sit, preparing for bad situations is intertwined with firearm ownership. It's part of my tactical thinking, just as much as keeping an eye out for nogoodnicks and thinking about carrying methods.

I found the bulk of the post-Katrina threads some of the best I've read on this forum or TFL. But I've already been looking to other forums for more information and I guess that's where I'll need to head in future.

Isn't discussing SHTF scenarios = being tactically and strategically prepared to handle potentially difficult situations? At least knowledge-wise.

Will the new policy be in regards to just SHTF threads or to all threads that are not strictly gun, gun, and gun related?

If it isnt, then we may as well get rid of alot of the threads in legal and political, general gun discussion, etc etc.
Personally i found SHTF threads entertaining, though there were quite a few of them. One thing leads to another, though. Either way this place is an excellent gun forum and there are lots of other places to chat- though many of them have what seem to be people of a mentally retarded stature on them.

Ah glad to hear it.

Jeff,

Sorry about the "Bugging In" thread I started. Apparently, I missed this sticky. Mea culpa.

Chris

I'm all for being prepared, but how many people actually look into the crash test ratings on their car, have a good retirement account started, or have at least 3 months of financial reserves should they lose their jobs? We don't discuss these mundane things because frankly, they're not as entertaining as SHTF fantasies. In short, the SHTF threads are sometimes very informative but I'm in total agreement with getting "back to the primary mission".

Hso, that's an excellent idea.

I second it.

Nem

ka50 said:

Isn't discussing SHTF scenarios = being tactically and strategically prepared to handle potentially difficult situations? At least knowledge-wise.

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Yes, of course it is.

Just my 2 cents

I started coming here because one of the other forums I used to frequent has really started to go downhill. One of the things that annoyed me the most, besides the name calling, bigotry, lack of tolerance to other views, etc. was the amount of SHTF scenarios. It got old . I also forgot to mention the "Ramobesque" screen names chosen by people. My vote, and this is only my vote, is to stick to gun related topics.

dm1333, welcome to THR. I see you're a relatively new member. (Despite my post count, I've only been here since August! Addictive place this is.)

I hear you re SHTF threads. Too many are not a good thing.

But I think you'll find that far and away, most of what's discussed on THR is guns and non firearm tools (knives, etc). {The exception is Legal & Political, which I mostly stay out of, and often regret wading in when I do. )

But, especially post Katrina, our SHTF threads seemed to shoot up. For some of us, even though we were ALSO posting regularly in gun related threads - which is really why we're here - we found good information and solace in the SHTF threads because they allowed us to discuss and share information about preparedness for various forms of SHTF (hurricanes, earthquakes, civil unrest, etc) IN ADDITION to discussions of guns.

I think that's why a few of us are hoping that THR will continue to be a forum mainly for guns - it's main mission, as it should be - but will allow a certain number of SHTF threads, or at least make the existing threads available as an obvious sticky (Hso's idea) so that those of us who wish to learn about & discuss those issues in addition to our gun related education can do so.

It has been suggested that we go elsewhere for SHTF preparedness. IMO, that isn't so desirable because we are a community here. We get to know each other fairly well (even if only in a virtual, digital sense) in our gun threads. We come to trust each other (or not), and understand who has reasonable information.

For me, that means a lot when evaluating advice on how to deal with SHTF scenarios.

Nem

Nematocyst

I understand what you are saying and even agree with it to an extent. I live in Northern California and have spent the last 11.5 years living in Forks, WA, Tillamook, OR and now here. I have dealt with a lot of floods, lost power in winter, and lost people in the woods, not to mention my work in the Coast Guard. Preparedness is a big part of my life. My problem with that type of thread is that it generally seems to deteriorate quickly. I also realize that I don't have to read the thread, but like any other rubber necker on the highway I just have to look at the crash I am actually an "old" member who moved several years ago, forgot his screen name and password, and just recently signed up again. What I like about THR is the civility and focus on guns. I don't want to lose that. If it were up to me even certain words like "newbie":banghead: would be banned since the number of posts you(of course not meaning you in particular) have made don't equate to any kind of practical knowledge of guns.