Workplace disgruntledness and firearms

best to run. in my cube i can hide behind 2 file cabinets and no one would know I was there; which is what I would do if the other option was jumping from 2 stories up. I typically keep my kimber in the car when at work. Even though my company isn’t posted, we have a policy against deadly weapons in the office. I would never trade shots at work. Too many folks in a confined space. Always best to retreat. good luck with the job.

*mild observation mode*

Seems to me that most folks who get killed by workplace violence probably tried the "run and hide" strategy.

pax

If I worked for a company that 1) prohibited me from defending myself and 2) there was a violent attack -- I would absolutely file a lawsuit against the company. It would wake up other companies with stupid policies.

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You can sue all day long. But don't get your hopes up.
For starters, you signed an application for that job. You CHOSE to work there. You could have found an employer with no such weapons policy.

Want to know a secret? Its your employers attorneys that write and approve the employee handbooks that set out the no-weapons policy. They write them up based on past experience with how the court system will rule.

You will lose if you try to sue them. There isn't even a moral victory at all by going into such a battle, because you will be portrayed by your employer as a gun toting psycho that wants to kill crazy people.

Seems to me that most folks who get killed by workplace violence probably tried the "run and hide" strategy.

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From the news reports I've seen, they've generally been either sheep who milled around, or the caught-by-surprise manager that the assailant was looking for, not people who took some definite course of action whether proactive or reactive.

After The Fat Slob Sings

Your biggest danger is not time-sensative, but your role in the departure. The shooter will come back looking for certain individuals to settle scores and in doing so, make a point.

If you are considered part of the reason they are gone, you are a potential target. It can go down at your desk, in the rest of the building, in the parking lot, or even at your outside work locations that are known.

Boy Scout motto is be prepared, not run away...

What if you cannot run? What if the one guy/gal in the company in a wheel chair is in front of you and you're unable to hurdle them? (remember, Pax indicated this is not a morals q&a) Now your evac plan is in the toilet.

Now what?

FWIW, a few years ago I worked at a company that went into layoff mode. They did not handle this situation well. I don't know who was advising them on how to do this, but results matter - 2 employees returned for revenge. 1 with a gun, another with a hunting knife. Additionally, we had a stalker on site twice, and an aggravated battery a few cubicles away. Pretty rough for a bunch of computer nerds

You need to make your own judgments but as PP has pointed out, not being there is the best medicine. If you're not able to get a job to replace Acme corp, answer yourself this question:

If a nutjob, who used to be a coworker is hell-bent on revenge after being fired comes back will my cunning wit and engaging humor and conversation be sufficient to make them stop?

For me, that answer is no. Make your own judgment on what 'prepared' is for you.

The employer is not resonsible for workplace violence not do they have any obligation to protect you from it.

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I disagree. The employer has a responsibility to have a safe workplace. The employee would win a lawsuit.

This is not related to violence, but I know of a lawsuit which illustrates the point. A 350 pound woman went to an Old County Buffet resturant for dinner. It was getting dark outside. She parked her car, and started walking to the resturant, when she tripped on a crack in the parking lot blacktop. She sued and won over 50 thousand. Since the crack was there for months, and the resturant did nothing, she got punative damages so the resturant was "punished" in addition to her damages.

I gaurentee if you get shot at work, you will win hundreds of thousands of dollars. Anything on the employment application will be voided by the court.

Your "role" in another employees termination may not be what you think it was. Or what your manager thinks it was. The only one who knows if that employee blames you is that employee, and when you find out it may be too late.

Make multiple plans for escape. Change where you park every day if possible. Stay alert. Change your before and after work habits. Do NOT hang around work after you can leave if possible, and don't come in any earlier than you have to. If you do need to be in early or stay late, pay special attention to who / what is around when no one else is. Try to go out for lunch, evenif you just go eat in your car. A tool that will shatter the window is a good idea - do reasearch on what the window might be made of.

Side note on the glass: If it's laminated, even a hammer and punch will NOT get you through it in time. I had a laminated glass window in my old house. had a slight (1/4 inch long) crack in it so the pane had to be replaced (per the buyer). I decided to remove the pane from the frame and replace it. The hammer broke it ... it created a 1 1/2" hole in it. With every swing. It took almost 5 minutes with a 24 oz framing hammer to clear a 24" x 24" window frame. By the way - many comercial buildings use laminated glass in those big picture windows.

Buy and wear kevlar ... remember, even if it doesn't stop the round he's shooting, it will at least slow it down.

As far as carrying, if you decide to remember: CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED! This isn't the same situation as running to the party store, or out to dinner or to the park ... where someone seeing your gun "print" may ignore it, and if they don't the CPL in your pocket will solve the issue (provided you aren't brandishing) if an LEO is called. In this kind of situation, if there is any hint you are carrying, you will be on the GO list, the same day, and probably with an LEO escort.

The employer is not resonsible for workplace violence not do they have any obligation to protect you from it.

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I disagree. The employer has a responsibility to have a safe workplace. The employee would win a lawsuit.

This is not related to violence, but I know of a lawsuit which illustrates the point. A 350 pound woman went to an Old County Buffet resturant for dinner. It was getting dark outside. She parked her car, and started walking to the resturant, when she tripped on a crack in the parking lot blacktop. She sued and won over 50 thousand. Since the crack was there for months, and the resturant did nothing, she got punative damages so the resturant was "punished" in addition to her damages.

I gaurentee if you get shot at work, you will win hundreds of thousands of dollars. Anything on the employment application will be voided by the court.

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I wouldn't "gaurentee" it. Too many screwy things happen in courts.

But it would seem that if an employeer was aware that workplace shootings occasionaly hapen after layoffs, and that they were going to be laying off thousands of workers, and they were offering no severence (therefore making the layoffs especialy harsh), and they didn't make some effort to provide security for the remainng employees ... then they would be at least questionable on the area of neglegance. And most companies don't go to court on "questionable" lawsuits. They settle them to avoid the expense and bad publicity.

Been there, done that. . . . twice and it blows. Your company evidently hasn't consulted the experts. Everyone wins when terminations are done with respect and dignity. I'll translate it "money". By simply throwing people under the bus with no compensation the company is increasing its chances of something ugly happening.

Your first line of defense is to assume you are targeted and that you will be offed. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant. Assuming you will get the pink slip will keep you from standing around like a turkey the day before thanksgiving. A certain mindset develops where people don't face reality and therefore fail to take steps necessary to protect themselves. Bust you butt now to find another job. You have no decisions to make until you receive an offer, but you have a really big problem if you guess wrong and are targeted for termination. The decision process is greatly simplified since there appears to be no severance programs (at least for the little people). Above all else protect yourself.

Now what about physical protection while at work. Advise here is sound, mostly. At a minimum I'd think some pepper spray is appropriate. Anything more is your call. Beware of the twisted psychology that set in whereby employees remain loyal to the very company that is preparing to terminate them. You must protect yourself.

But it would seem that if an employeer was aware that workplace shootings occasionaly hapen after layoffs, and that they were going to be laying off thousands of workers, and they were offering no severence (therefore making the layoffs especialy harsh), and they didn't make some effort to provide security for the remainng employees ... then they would be at least questionable on the area of neglegance. And most companies don't go to court on "questionable" lawsuits. They settle them to avoid the expense and bad publicity.

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It doesn't take much to provide security. Lock the doors, have a security gaurd from a remote room with a camera operate the door. If someone gets in who does not belong, call the police right away. Keep doors to different area's locked, so someone can't get in sections of the company they don't belong. Most employers leave the front door wide open, and offer no security, just one receptionist. In those places, havoc can occur.

I would also avoid talking too much to anyone while at work. Be nice enough where the other person would pass on you to go after someone else. I'd much rather the disgruntled employee walk right by me on his way to the CEO office, than have him stop and shoot me because he remembers something I said 5 months ago. I would also look to see if there are any bathrooms with locking doors, it might be a place to retreat until the police arrive.

I think the locking doors idea is a good one also.

I don't think many workplace violence happened where the perpatrater tried to bust down doors - from what I recall they usually keep walking taking the easy shots.

Look for a supply closet or a computer terminal closet (file room, bathroom)that has a heavy solid door and if it doesn't lock bring something to work that you can use to jam the door so it can't be pushed open.

You may not be at your cube when the attack occurs so its good to know your surroundings and have a few places to barracade yourself in - just like a saferoom at home. I remember seeing ads for a small device that you can take to hotel rooms that goes in the doorjam. Its portable and looks like you could carry it in your pocket.

IANAL, but here's how it was explained to me during my CHL class:

The presumption is that an employer is supposed to provide a safe workplace, though the liability if some lunatic attacks is hazy at best, and depends on a LOT of other issues, such as prior incidents, threats, etc.

People who have CHLs have been issued them by the State for purposes of lawful self-defense. The State recognizes them as responsible and acknowledges that they have a right to self defense. If the State does, how can an employer say otherwise, and on what basis?

If an employer specifically prohibits the employee from carrying a firearm the State has licensed him to carry for purposes of lawful self defense, then it can be argued that the employer is assuming responsibility for the employee's safety, and that by denying the licensed employee the right to carry, it was reasonably forseeable that the state-licensed employee, rendered defenseless by company policy, would have a greatly increased risk of serious injury or death.

I'm unaware of any case law on this (to repeat, IANAL) but the TSRA website - before it was redesigned - had posted a letter from some building owner's association which sort of said the same thing.

Employer admitting liability?

One point that I have not seen discussed, regarding "No Weapons" policies: wouldn't they make the company MORE vulnerable to a lawsuit? By adopting such a policy, they are:
A) Admitting there is a foreseeable danger (plaintiff would not have to prove it)
B) Admitting the employer is responsible for doing something about it (since they, in fact, did)
C) Making the employees MORE vulnerable to harm (by restricting the ability for self defense), without doing anything to reduce the danger (assuming there are no random screenings, armed guards and metal detectors at the entrances - a BG can just ignore the policy at will.)

Why don't the lawyers drawing up these policies see a problem here? Are there, in fact, knowledgable lawyers involved at all? Is there really very much case law on these points?

She parked her car, and started walking to the resturant, when she tripped on a crack in the parking lot blacktop. She sued and won over 50 thousand. Since the crack was there for months, and the resturant did nothing, she got punative damages so the resturant was "punished" in addition to her damages.

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apples to oranges. your story is about the restaurants liability and their negligent attitude towards a potential loss/claim.
that is worlds different than an employer attempting to keep the workplace free of weapons. the blame in a workplace violence scenario is then shifted to the individual committing the violence, not the employer whose policy is that you keep your gun off premises.

hso:

Your tripping lady example is irrelvant to the employer/employee relationship since she was not an employee. It is a simple example of a hazardous condition that the company had direct control over and constitutes negligence resulting in injury to a member of the public. If she had been an employee she would not be able to sue and would have gotten nothing more than the worker's compensation laws in her state outline.

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Would the situation be different it the tripping employee had notified the employer of the danger?
What if the employer had taken documented notice of the problem, but done nothing to fix it (or even made it worse), but still required the employee to be exposed to the danger?
Would there be any civil/criminal liability then?

Every state's laws are slightly different, but in many states if you are hurt on the job by anything, whether accidental or criminal, your only recovery is workers' compensation, which is usually pretty small amounts of money. On the other hand if you as an employee shoot a non-employee and the company allowed CCW, they might be in for some big bucks. So it makes sense from the company's point of view to prohibit CCW.

Dead employee = out a few bucks.

Dead visitor, customer or former employee = out a lot of bucks.

That bad?

hso, okie

So you're essentially saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for the employer to do anything to increase their liability beyond Workman's Comp?

Employer REQUIRES you to cross bad pavement, despite complaints; no liability when you trip?

Employer hires cheap Rent-A-Cop who puts an N.G. in your belly, and you TOLD your manager the guy was incompetent; no liability?

Your office is a fire-trap, and the employer installs only an undersized/expired extinguisher, despite your protest; no liability if a fire harms you?

As long as you're only an employee, there can be no grounds for a lawsuit, ever?

As long as you're only an employee, there can be no grounds for a lawsuit, ever?

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For the most part, employers are shielded from ordinary liability for such things by the workman's comp laws.

It is not 100%, but it is rare that an employee can collect against an employer for injuries sustained on the job except through the workman's comp systems.

You can sue a third party though. Like the rent-a-cop company. Or the people that own the building the employer is leasing.

hmm

What if I'm a 3rd party? I work for a subcontactor- the place I work, with the no-weapons policy, is NOT my employer. Could I sue for injuries resulting from their policies? That would be neat - vendors usually are the lowest on the totem pole.

In some states, like this one, you cannot sue an employor for any damages, you can only claim workers comp. They are thinking of changing the law to allow for lawsuits due to workers comp. pays very little and also the employors are doing things in an unsafe manner because they are immune from suits.

As for the carry at work I am lucky that it's a don't ask, don't tell atmoshere. Our handbook does state no weapons but it's just there as a cya for the company (until this law passes that is). They know that I have a CCW because my bosses signed my references form.

When we were broken into last year, one of the bosses that signed came to work with a Colt Python (beautiful pistol, stainless and I believe it was the 6in model). I saw it, no big deal. All of the other employees have a truck gun at all times, mostly .38's. I myself carry a .38 in an ankle holster and have a Glock .40 in the car.

Since this is a work at will state ( I think that's what it is called when they can terminate you for any reason or no reason at all), companies don't need an excuse to get rid of you and don't have to cite a reason so my thoughts are, why not carry anyway, what can they do to me, fire me?

But then again, I don't have a family, I own my home and the only bills that I have, sans the car payment (I own the other one), are for lux. items like modem, tv, etc.. Electric would be the only utility that would affect me as I have a well with an electric pump and also a handle in case the electric goes off.

Don't feel bad. In the last place I worked, I worked overnight hours with 2 to 3 other people. Oh, did I mention that we had hundreds of kilos of narcotics on site, including morphine, codeine, and powerful derivitives of both? I was given the responsibility of holding keys and combinations to the drug vaults but wasn't allowed to bring a gun on-site, let alone carry one. Of course the site was protected by a pair of glass double doors that faced the street that might put a small dent in a big buick if it were driven through the doors- those glass doors made me feel reaaaaaaal safe To top it off, the President of the company when interviewed for a large article in the sunday Milwaukee paper mentioned what kind of materials we had on site, only 20 miles from Milwaukee.

I was considered the 'gun nut' at work. Getting fired during a large layoff in the company was one of the biggest stress relievers I had in years, I obtained a new job within 2 weeks, and used my meager severance check to buy a new AR-15.