We have no rights.

Getting arrested for victimless crimes were nonexistent.

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People have been getting arrested and/or killed for victimless crimes since the first tribes formed and a de facto leader of each emerged from the rabble. Survival of the species requires organization and group effort, but organization and group effort come at a price - the need to follow the rules set forth by the leadership. And corruption, pettiness, and simple bullying goes hand in hand with that; always has, and always will. This is nothing new or unique to your existence.

As usual, a chimpanzee's tea party rather than any concerted effort to achieve change in our favor.
The majority of people on this site are simply reactionary, argumentative blowhards that have no interest in affecting the agendas they freely espouse.

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I'd suggest that the notion of 'freedom' popularized on this (and other) sites is a pipe dream based upon precious little understanding of human culture and human history. Those 'blowhards' to which you refer are probably at least smart enough to realize that the very thing that they wish for is not an obtainable goal, and so they bluster or whine instead of trying to start a revolution in the streets.

Freedom isn't being free of rules - it's being able to change the rules by changing the leadership. Living outside the rules has been an unobtainable goal for most of human history, and fleeting at best when achieved.

And given the fact that we still have some ability to influence the rules under which we live, I'd say that our state of affairs isn't really all that bad.

Refirignis said:

He doesn't mean it like that. He wasn't talking about how things in general were back then, only how rights were. 100 years ago there were almost 0 laws restricting our rights. No 23,000 gun control laws, not many regulations for everything. Getting arrested for victimless crimes were nonexistent.

Everything changed after 1933. There are a few reasons for that.

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The only way this could possibly be true is if you were only referring to laws at the federal level. The first pre-1933 reference which came to my mind was the October 26, 1881 Gunfight at the OK Corral. ("Instead of leaving town, as Ike now planned to do, Frank insisted on staying in town to do some business. He further insisted on doing this business while armed, in violation of city ordinance.")

Rights have been something the people need to fight hard for, with varying definitions of the word "fight", since, in this case, December 15, 1791.

At the great risk of geekdom, I must correct you with a quote from a movie.

"Try not. Do! Or do not. There is no 'try'" - Yoda.

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket here, but we really have no rights. At least not compared to the rights we had 100 years ago.

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Hey... does anybody else feel like they just got covered with a wet blanket?

Want to buy a gun? Fill out the 4473 and, in most states, wait a couple of days until the Fed's run a NICS check on you.

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I thought most had insta-check w/o a state mandated wait. Figures?

Want to buy a subgun? First ask around to see if your chief LEO will even sign the Form 4. If so, pay the $200 tax stamp, and then pay ten or twenty times what the gun was worth in 1985.

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You don't *need* the cleo signoff and there are other paths to class 3 ownership that are perfectly legal. Sure, it's a hassle, but let's slay one dragon at a time, shall we?

Want to carry a gun for self-defense? Be prepared to spend a few hundred dollars on training, background checks, and fees. Assuming, of course, that you live in a state where such a seemingly simple but obnoxious process is the law. If you're in a no-issue or almost no-issue state, tough luck. You don't have any rights.

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Hey, somebody help get this wet blanket off me!

Actually, the taxpayers footed the bill for my concealment permit training and I could open carry with zero training should I desire here in my home state, which, btw, we understand you could do as well in yours but for your concern about breach of the peace charges, no?

I don't have any rights, huh? http://bighammer.net/gunblog.html (and I see I have some editing to do AGAIN...)

Want to complain about the above? Good luck finding a source where you can vent your complaints.

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You did a pretty good job here. kind of depressing, and WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP GET THIS STINKIN' WET BLANKET MONKEYLEG DROPPED ON ME OFF!

What about approaching your legislator (senator, representative, US congressman, or US senator) to address the issue of redress of grievances?

Good luck.Your chances of a one-on-one meeting with a representative or senator to the US congress are about as good as being hit by satellite debris.

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BTDTGTTS. I was able to get staff meetings and face time, and even my mom calls me a hard @$$. No, I haven't been hit by satellite debris yet.

Your chances on the state level are better. They're even better if you bring a check with you.

What if you don't like the replies you get from your elected representatives?

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I'm going to step out on a limb here and say... get some friends to help out, keep at it, continue making the argument, tailor your message and refuse to accept defeat.

Well, you could raise money to try to defeat them in their elections. Oh, but there's that pesky thing called "campaign finance reform." If you have money to run ads, hire a very good attorney, or go to jail for criticizing Congressman Crook.

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Ok, sometimes the elections don't go your way. Welcome to America.

I'd like more of us to be more active in the fight too but (still waiting for someone to help get this d@mn wet blanket off me) as far as motivational material goes, this thread is a little short.

Besides, this board is only big enough for one DOOMSAYER, and my hat is already in the ring

You have the rights you are willing to stand up and exercise.

My few pieces of eight.

This nation was truly a better place 100 years ago...and even better than that when it was founded, for many reasons (some of which some people today would have you believe were even evidence of the contrary). Who knows if enough men of courage will ever again exist to "take it back," as it were. It happened once, so it's not impossible. But now, I'd have to say it's pretty unlikely. This time, the tyranny is coming too gradually to be perceptible to the average lemming.

Better for White property-owning Protestant men. Much worse for Irish, Nigras, Hebrews, Italians, Indians, Chinamen and other non-Whites. And yes, every one of those nasty words was completely socially acceptable. Lousy for women. Really, really bad for the urban poor (most of the urban population). Not great for hard-scrabble farmers, sharecroppers, miners or factory and sweatshop workers.

Don't Make The Mistake...

...of believing we have less rights now than what our ancestors had in 1791. We've still go them - ALL of them. It is the infringement and abridgment of them that we suffer that is the crux of the problem facing us. Saying any right has been taken away or lost removes it from the specific verbiage of the Constitution. It becomes difficult to defend a right not considered to be protected by our Constitution. This is important. It is one of those little - almost imperceptible - increments nibbling away at our rights.

Our rights do not need to be reinstated or restored. They need to be unabridged and uninfringed. Don't sit around and lament the "loss" of them, for they are not gone. Don't waste your time or breath talking about how to restore or reinstate them. Talk about uninfringing and unabridging them instead. Work to uninfringe and unabridge them. Campaign to uninfringe and unabridge them. Lobby to uninfringe and unabridge them. Vote to uninfringe and unabridge them. Recruit others to uninfringe and unabridge them. Do that, and we might not need to fire a single shot. Prepare for the worst, though. Exercising the power inherent in our Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the back-up plan.

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood

Monkeyleg: I don't want to sound like a wet blanket here, but we really have no rights. At least not compared to the rights we had 100 years ago.

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Wet Blanket? Nope!
Realist? Yep!

Valkman: So what's the point of this? If you don't like where you live, move!

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Ok, Where? What place has the Freedoms and Libertys that the US did 100 years or so ago?

Phetro: This time, the tyranny is coming too gradually to be perceptible to the average lemming.

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All to True sadly.

Rights are subjective.

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really!? I didnt get that from reading the Bill of rights....

Nither did I, but the Slimeballs in office seem to think so.

This is true, but if it weren't for all the things done to our society and country during that civil rights movement in the 1960s (and since) and in the name of 'liberty', I'd have an easier time thinking that the civil rights movement wasn't misguided, and that the cultural segregation of 100 years ago may not have been all that foolhardy.

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I have no answer for this type of "response". Maybe the CR movement was misguided, but segregation?

Monkeyleg, the BoR is nothing if people don't believe that it has validity or meaning. Without the will to enforce it and run the government according to it it is, to quote the POTUS, just "that damned piece of paper". It was only in the twentieth century that the Supremes finally ruled that individuals could defend their political speech on First Ammendment grounds. The Law in its majesty means nothing except as it is interpreted, followed and applied. That depends almost entirely on social conditions. For a very long time the BoR and all the other protections we take for granted didn't apply to all sorts of people. Consider Dredd Scott as just one tiny example.

Well, when the 2nd is finally held as sacrosanct as the 1st, as it was totally intended by the men who wrote both, to be, then I'll stop considering all politicians as felons on the loose.

And before anyone spouts the old saw that "books don't kill people", then explain the body counts directly attributable to "The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf".

Ideals are deadlier than firearms.

100 years ago, over 1/2 of the American population didn't have the right to vote including women and blacks

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Mu wife always tells me some Black men could vote before any women.

You have no "rights" other than those you can secure for yourself. Everything else is a privlege.

I thought everyone knew that.


Having said all that, things really aren't that bad. There's room for improvement to be sure but things are better now than a few years ago certainly.

There are so many facets to this that it's almost impossible to drill down to the basis.

Sometimes the guy who respects the constitution more loses.

Sometimes a good guy becomes more occupied securing reelection than doing his/her job.

Realistically, carriers are --what -- 3% of society, tops... that's LEO and non-LEO

Often times we fall victim to a wedge issue like the recent elections and let's not even begin to discuss the "party obsession" with holding on to power.

What we need more than anything else right now is for more of US to raise their hands, stand up and agree to help. Sometimes, you just have to stop talking, typing and DO IT.

I have friend who is on opencarry.org. He open carries at the grocery store, in malls, restaurants, parks, at lobby day, at Barnes and Noble, you name it.

At first, I didn't think this as 'helpful', I have to admit. upon reflection, I was wrong. Most folks see him as just a regular guy and btw, he carries a gun.
Is he an "extremist"? yes, in every good sense of the word. Are some of us here on THR? Sure. But not enough of us.

Don't Make The Mistake...
...of believing we have less rights now than what our ancestors had in 1791. We've still go them - ALL of them. It is the infringement and abridgment of them that we suffer that is the crux of the problem facing us. Saying any right has been taken away or lost removes it from the specific verbiage of the Constitution. It becomes difficult to defend a right not considered to be protected by our Constitution. This is important. It is one of those little - almost imperceptible - increments nibbling away at our rights.

Our rights do not need to be reinstated or restored. They need to be unabridged and uninfringed. Don't sit around and lament the "loss" of them, for they are not gone. Don't waste your time or breath talking about how to restore or reinstate them. Talk about uninfringing and unabridging them instead. Work to uninfringe and unabridge them. Campaign to uninfringe and unabridge them. Lobby to uninfringe and unabridge them. Vote to uninfringe and unabridge them. Recruit others to uninfringe and unabridge them. Do that, and we might not need to fire a single shot. Prepare for the worst, though. Exercising the power inherent in our Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the back-up plan.

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As always, well said, sir! I find myself reminding people of this often (that rights cannot be lost, only infringed upon), and it's good to see it written so eloquently here.

Mu wife always tells me some Black men could vote before any women.

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True enough, and it was as early as the 15th Amendment in 1870. The only problem was while they had the right, they were often kept from being able to vote. Many southern states passed poll taxes, reading and writing tests, etc. to keep blacks from voting.

Good catch. Your wife is a keeper.

So, 100 years ago, black men could vote in some parts of the country without hassle, as could white men, but while a right, not always recognized in many states.

The way we are going right now with the current adminstration what is left of our tatter rights won't survive the next 100yrs. Its time to fight, thank the gods that the Dems won this past fall.

the vast majority of US citizens don't have a "freedom mindset" any longer

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I would agree and add that many of those that do have a "freedom mindset" only seem to care about the personal freedoms they value.

For example, it is truly hypocritical to demand free speech under the 1st Amendment yet welcome erosion of the 2nd Amendment. It is also hypocritical to expect to have out 2nd Amendment honored and protected yet try to deny others their opportunity to voice their opinions.


And then there are those that only support protection for the “things” they favor under the 2nd Amendment, such as the so called "sportsmen" that enjoy skeet shooting, hunting and such but don't choose to fight for semi-autos because they "see no need" for those types of weapons. These are like 1st Amendment Free Speech supporters that support free speech only when it is their speech being protected. I see this much like those that demand evolution taught in school but refuse to allow even the slightest mention of intelligent design. Personally I say offer both and let the recipient decide which to believe.

The bottom line is that too many people want to have their own freedoms protected while at the same time demand restrictions be placed on the rights of others. Such people not only want to live their lives as they see fit, they want to see that you live your life as they see fit.

The way we are going right now with the current adminstration what is left of our tatter rights won't survive the next 100yrs. Its time to fight, thank the gods that the Dems won this past fall.

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...it will not matter. Both parties represent a split in civl liberties. (and they suck at this representation) How will one winning help??

For example, it is truly hypocritical to demand free speech under the 1st Amendment yet welcome erosion of the 2nd Amendment. It is also hypocritical to expect to have out 2nd Amendment honored and protected yet try to deny others their opportunity to voice their opinions.

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Similarly have you seen any of the flag burning debates around here? A surprising number of people who think we're entitled to any gun we want think burning a US flag shouldn't be protected speech.

Similarly have you seen any of the flag burning debates around here? A surprising number of people who think we're entitled to any gun we want think burning a US flag shouldn't be protected speech.

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Count me among the anti-flag-burning crowd. Until some species of intelligent fire-breathing dragons come along, burning something is hardly speech.

Not to be too picky, but to put a fine point on the RKBA, we're not entitled to any gun we want, we simply have the right to keep and bear any weapon we want. We've still got to go out and buy any we want(or inherit, receive as a gift, take as the spoils of war...)

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood