Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?

Mike101, okay; but how many cops are available? There's a report of "Shots fired on campus", right? Does that automatically bring all on-duty officers to the campus? Then, how is it decided who goes where and does what, and how long does all that take?

I'm not saying Do This or Don't Do That; I'm speaking to the physical problems that seem to be ignored in all this "woulda/coulda/shoulda" stuff.

VA Tech has 28,470 students, per Wikipedia. If only half were in class at any one time, and if it's reasonable to assume a class is no more than 30, average, then that's some 470 classrooms. Plus: Gym classes. Dorms. Student Union. Library(ies).

Time. Always time...

Art

Lockdowns are great, unless you're locked in the building with the shooter.

And how in the world do you lock down a 4-square-mile campus with well over 100 buildings and 35,000 students and employees? Not to mention the SIX MILES of steam tunnels connecting the buildings. Yes, the steam pipes are insulated. www.vtunderground.com/tunnels/tunnels.htm

Bullhorns? Might work if they drive up close to the windows. Otherwise, those stone walls are thick and the buildings solid. Heck, the year I lived in West AJ I had a 9' x 12' waterbed on the 7th floor and nobody cared. Sturdy.



Here's an article on Hokie Stone:
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www.vtmagazine.vt.edu//spring99/feature1.html

"Today, no academic or student building will be constructed on campus without some native limestone in its facade. According to university architect Scott Hurst, this is a directive of the board of visitors, whose buildings and grounds committee must approve all plans.

Now quarried around Blacksburg, the Hokie stone emerges in a range of hues, described as three colors "white, pink and black." In time, all the stone will succumb to weather and turn gray, like Price Hall.

Using Hokie stone on outer walls is about twice as expensive as brick, according to the university's office of capital design and construction. But the value of Hokie stone to Tech cannot be measured in dollars."
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Of course, they didn't use much stone on Burchard Hall, it's underground.

"The true size of Burchard Hall in the Cowgill plaza is hidden. That's because the building named for the late architecture dean, Charles Burchard, is mostly underground. Four large, glass pyramids provide natural light into the heart of the building, and a stairway leads from a kiosk in the plaza to subterranean offices and studio space. "



Meanwhile, do the police lock down your home town when a couple of people get murdered? They don't here.

John

P.S. - BTW, that's a gentleman's C that you get just for showing up. I hear the rich guys invented it up the road at UVA.

I think at least an effort to lock down the campus is better than none at all. They just didn't want the hassle of trying!!!

Had the VT Pres. and University Police acknowledged the warning signs of this individuals stalking women, demonic writings, and recomendations from his professors, he may have not been there to commit this travesty. That is what they are guilty of. Being afraid of a lawsuit allowed by the laws they support, and the publicity.

26,000 people on campus...

That's a small/medium size town / that's the population of 5 aircraft carriers

I can imagine that a population of that size typically experiences several murders a year. Initially, here was no particular reason to suspect that this was cause for a total campus lockdown.

I do have to wonder why this man was allowed to stay in school though.

I also think that we should all be very cautious about placing blame before all of the facts are known. That will only hurt our credibility during the debate that is sure to follow.

hunt,

The women who accused Cho of stalking refused to file charges=not the police's or anyone else's fault.

If we jailed anyone and everyone who wrote strange, violent fiction, over half of the current fiction writers would be in jail. Heck, have you seen the movies that are coming out these days? Every week, it seems, is a new movie like SAW, or Texas Chainsaw Massacre 12. These new movies are 100 times sicker than anything I have read of Cho's. So you'd be ok with a teacher seeing a student drawing some artwork of firearms and since the teacher finds it disturbing, they can turn them in or kick them out of class?

For me the kicker is the "mentally disturbed" and "imminent threat to himself and others" judgement that was seemingly ignored and/or overlooked later.

A lot of procedures and people screwed up. Calling for a knee-jerk reaction to fire these people before figuring out all the nitty gritty details is the same reaction happening on "the other side", the knee-jerk reaction to blame video games, call for the closing of the Roanoke shop that sold the gun, pass new gun legislation, etc.

Each and every peoson who helped to make VT an 'unarmed vicitms' ghetto should be fired, sued, and tarred and feathered.

I remember seeing on CNN a report on a false lead. Seems some girl knew some other guy that had gone shooting, and told the police about him. So, they ran around looking for him, while Cho was out doing his thing.

Here's one: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/
This one links to the NYT, which requires a log-in to view. Scroll down to "Questions on the First Attack."

Unfortunately, Google isn't being nice, and that's the only reference I can find. I remember seeing on CNN, but they aren't giving my any hits either.

Oh, and interestingly enough, this came up too. Seems you guys trying to sue might be dissappointed.
http://www.wlky.com/news/12629015/detail.html
If that was thrown out...

Don Imus was fired for a lot less.

Rem700SD is absolutely right.

I started to skim past and then I saw this, “CRIMINALLY prosecuted”. I agree completely with that! This dumbA$$ was contacted by campus police about a double murder in a dorm (including an employee of the college), the city police had to be notified as there is no real LEO status conferred to a rent-a-cop on a private contract. The collective decision was to ignore the incident as a “domestic dispute gone bad and there is no reason to panic because the shooter is off campus by now”. Mule-fritters!!

If a friend of mine asked for a ride to the bank and then killed a teller and guard while I waited for his return, I could be prosecuted for two murders. This college official is no less guilty of thirty-two murders. If the common buildings had been immediately locked to any entry and the local police called in to maintain security, all we would be discussing is a double murder on VT soil.

He is also the one responsible for the failure of the pro CCW bill in Virginia; he was quite smug about it on the day of and the day after the shootings. He might as well have pulled the trigger himself. Having made sure that all students were helpless in the face of a psychotic killer, he became personally responsible for their safety. A job he miserably failed at!

Don’t give me any “hindsight is 20/20” nonsense! If this was a grade, middle, or high school anywhere in the country; an instant lock-down would have occurred. Every officer in a five-mile radius would be standing watch and the FBI would be en-route from where ever needed to bolster the line. If a shooting occurred within a quarter mile of any public school, an instant lock down would be called. It shouldn’t be any different at VT, or any other college.
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In his now published "manifesto," and the two plays a former classmate has put online, it is abundantly clear that Cho's literacy operated at nowhere near a collegiate level.

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They didn't want to harm his 'self-esteem'.

Pilgrim

If this was a grade, middle, or high school anywhere in the country; an instant lock-down would have occurred.

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High schools are typically only one or two buildings and people aren't/shouldn't be comming and going all day. A campus is more like a town. I don't think any of us would have had the foresight to lock the whole place down.

Are there lessons to be learned? Yes.

Are there some things that might have been done differently? Yes.

But overall, I have no problem with the VT police response. What if they had locked down the campus? Cho was a student determined to die a glorious Quentin Tarantino style death. He would have just shot up his dorm rather than a classroom building and the end results would have been the same.

No way should we be swinging dull axes at people for not being prescient.
Did they have clues and indicators that this guy might go postal? Yes. But clues and indicators are just that. They are not information used to disrupt the daily operations of a university. Hindsight makes it real easy for us to paint blame with a broad brush. Foresight is a much harder tool to wield accurately.

Hindsight made the 9/11 attacks seem painfully obvious and when the next major terrorist attack occurs here we will also be aware, through the magic lens of hindsight, how easily we could have prevented it......if we were in fact a nation of Jean Dixon's.

Give me a break - please

This thread appears to be based on the myth that police (or the college administration) have a duty to protect.

The law says they don't. The police, as one highroad member so clearly states, exist to find and arrest offenders when we fail to take care of the situation ourselves.

It may well be that the college committed a tort by preventing licensed individuals from carrying to protect life. That may (perhaps should) be the subject of a civil suit.

It is bad enough to continually hear the bleating of the hoplophobes and gun banners "BUT YOU HAVE POLICE TO PROTECT YOU." It is high time that we who are willing to protect ourselves recognize - once and for all - that this is a ploy to disarm us. In many places in the world it is working.

Every time I hear a gun owner whining that the police didn't do their job because someone got hurt, I despair that we will ever see a time when free men again walk free streets.

You know what. The problem is that no one wants to take responsibility for anything. There is no honor or sense of community. The honorable thing would be for the President of Va. Tech to resign. If someone did take it upon themselves to be responsible for security at Va. Tech I think a much better job would have been done. When your neck is in the noose and you are being held responsible you do your best !!! The current officials don't care. They want to blame someone else or plead ignorance. I say prosecute the bastards. They ARE responsible for these murdered kids !!!

"Two dead, no suspect"

They had a suspect, or person of interest, one victim's boyfriend who was known to own and shoot guns.

I'm still chuckling at the lockdown proponents who've never been to Tech and don't understand the size of the campus. Heck, I chuckle at lockdowns in general when the location of the threat or threats is unknown because they herd people into large groups that make good targets.

goings_51: That's 26,000 students. Add another 10,000 employees plus any visitors. The campus covers 2600 acres, about 4 sq. mi.

John

JohnBT... I am extremely familiar with the campus of Va. Tech. At 7:00 in the morning when the first murders occured the school did not have that many people on campus. Sure...2600 acres of mostly pastures, barns , woods and athletic fields. There is absolutely no reason an effort should not have been made to warn the students and faculty and to close the campus. Maybe it wouldn't have been as effective as it could have due to the size of the school. Yet do you just do nothing and hope for the best ??? Hell....If there was an effort made the 30 other murders may have been averted. I can't understand this defeatist attitude of oh lets do nothing. Give the students the knowledge of whats going on. Let them make a decision for themselves. Just like the jet in Pennsylvania that went down on Sept. 11 2001. These people learned that the terrorists were probably going to fly them into a building some where. They chose to fight because they had this information. Maybe the kids at Va. Tech would have acted differently if they knew about the earlier murders. They may have been more aware. More cautious. Maybe the damn murderer would have been caught. We however will never know because some bastard siting in his Ivory Tower didn't want the inconvenience of trying. I hope those responsible for the decision are prosecuted and quite frankly I hope they burn in H*LL with the murderer !!!

You watch. I'm already hearing rumblings from the VA Attorney General, on the news, about an investigation into the action (or lack thereof) that was taken by the school and the police. I think one or two heads are going to roll.

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Naaah! That will be just to exonerate and to undermine any lawsuits. Insurance companies probably requested it.

Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?

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I certainly think so, for the way they neglected to handle the situation at all, after the first 2 murders.

Now, we know what Cho was doing for the 2 hours between the 2 murders in the dorm, and the additional 30 murders at Norris Hall. He was off to the post office mailing his manifesto to NBC. During that time, NOTHING was done to secure the campus, and the shooter was still at large. They didn't even suspend classes for the day. If they had, there wouldn't have been anyone at Norris hall to shoot. Instead, they sent emails. I think a few cops with bullhorns might have been just a bit more effective.

Later, the college pres. and police chief were tripping over eachother, offering weak excuses to the press. The jist of these, was that the campus is too big to secure, with too many access points. Boloney. The campus is 2600 acres. Back in the early 70s, I saw local cops in South Jersey throw a blockade around the entire city of Camden, NJ, do to rioting in the city. Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres. My buddies and I spent the rest of that night trying to get into the city, just to see if we could. We couldn't.

Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

I am especially upset with the police chief. He should have known better

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So let me get this straight, if a guy and a girl are shot in an apartment or house a block from your home, you would support the police shutting down a 2600 acre area (3.3 square miles) surrounding that apartment building, including your house? You would want them to assume that every murder or shooting is the prelude to a major killing spree, and therefore they should severely restrict the freedom of everyone within 3 miles of the murder scene?

The truth is they had a guy and girl murdered in a dwelling, and there was nothing to suggest that the murders were a prelude to a killing spree. People get murdered every day in the same manner the first two victims were and it does not result in a killing spree. Prior to this if the cops were locking down every place within 3 miles of a murder or shooting most on this forum would be screaming holy hell about the oppression of civil liberties.

In fact here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=93934&highlight=WIG

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=93431

This is yet another example of the Catch-22 LE faces in these types of situations. If they take action and people get hurt, then the armchair quarterbacks all cry, "they're a bunch of trigger happy cowboys and should have waited longer." If people get hurt before LE takes action those same armchair quarterbacks will cry, "those cowards should have done something sooner."

In fact I've mentioned this before:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1841519&highlight=Columbine#post1841519