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Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by mike101, Apr 20, 2007.

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  1. mike101

    mike101 Member

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    I certainly think so, for the way they neglected to handle the situation at all, after the first 2 murders.

    Now, we know what Cho was doing for the 2 hours between the 2 murders in the dorm, and the additional 30 murders at Norris Hall. He was off to the post office mailing his manifesto to NBC. During that time, NOTHING was done to secure the campus, and the shooter was still at large. They didn't even suspend classes for the day. If they had, there wouldn't have been anyone at Norris hall to shoot. Instead, they sent emails. I think a few cops with bullhorns might have been just a bit more effective.

    Later, the college pres. and police chief were tripping over eachother, offering weak excuses to the press. The jist of these, was that the campus is too big to secure, with too many access points. Boloney. The campus is 2600 acres. Back in the early 70s, I saw local cops in South Jersey throw a blockade around the entire city of Camden, NJ, do to rioting in the city. Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres. My buddies and I spent the rest of that night trying to get into the city, just to see if we could. We couldn't.

    Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

    I am especially upset with the police chief. He should have known better.

    So, should they go?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2007
  2. KentuckyBoy

    KentuckyBoy Member

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    They should be prosecuted for violating the 2nd Amendment rights of an entire student body while protecting the 1st Amendment (free speech) rights of a LUNATIC. My Constitution is not a SELECTIVE document. We must be allowed the rights and priveleges defined therin in their entirety.

    Liberals think we can selectively administer this timeless document.
     
  3. tenbase

    tenbase Member

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    it's 2600 acres (about 4 square miles), not 26.

    my opinion is VT was more concerned about their reputation after the first shooting that morning, rather than going all-out to apprehend the guy.
     
  4. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    To answer your question, no.

    However, VT should change their policy on legal CHP holder concealed carry on campus (as should every institution in VA).
     
  5. SIRVEYR666

    SIRVEYR666 Member

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    Do they normally put any entire city on lock down when someone is murdered? All of these things are easy to point out in hindsight. I'm putting most of the blame on the gun wielding psycho.
     
  6. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    I guess the world now thinks cops must be psychic... Ms Cleo, calling Ms Cleo your needed in the Chiefs Office!
     
  7. 30 cal slob

    30 cal slob Member

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    yes and yes.

    first for making the place a victim disarmament zone.

    secondly for twiddling their thumbs while the shooter was getting ready to kill another 30 people. TWO FARKIN HOURS! I want to puke. :cuss:

    I really want to know what the cops were thinking when they had that boyfriend in custody. Didn't he witness the shooting? Didn't he say the shooter was still at large?
     
  8. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    That is known in hindsight, but did the first shooting really indicate that the rest of the campus was in danger? I see the grounds for complaints, but I think I would be more critical of someone who did not demonstrate learning anything from the unique incident.

    I don't know that the campus is structured so that commuters can be readily blocked from entering campus or students blocked from leaving the dorms. That's a lot of manpower and equipment. We already know that alerting everyone was no easy matter. Give them a break and see how they react re future policy.
     
  9. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    People have been saying that the campus is too large to lock down and it's like locking down a small city and the fact that no place in the US locks down after a murder.

    I agree that locking down the campus is an exercise in futility. However, isn't that the current campus policy for dealing with crime? I could be mistaken about this, though. If it is current VT (and other campuses) policy to lock down, then I would state that the VT president holds some culpability in not securing the campus.
     
  10. mike101

    mike101 Member

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    "Do they normally put any entire city on lock down when someone is murdered?"

    This was a college campus, not a city block.

    As I said in my post, I've seen the cops blockade a whole city.

    No one thinks the cops, or the chief should be physic. But, having the brains that God gave geese, and a little common sense, isn't too much to ask. Even something as minimal as suspending classes would probably have prevented a lot of death.

    If two people are murdered on a college campus, then yeah, you secure the place, or at least try. These two incompetants did nothing.

    And, at this point, it goes without saying that if CCW had been allowed, this whole thing may have had a different outcome.
     
  11. Rem700SD

    Rem700SD Member

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    I don't think the VT president should be fired. I think he needs to be CRIMINALLY prosecuted for negligent homicide and fraudulent claims resulting in death. I believe he's the one who made the quote about safer schools after the pro cw bill died in commity. The chief of campus police should not be hung out to dry. He doesn't set policy.

    Dan
     
  12. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    I think it would be great if we went back to the old Roman tradition: if someone in office screwed up royally, he would be encouraged to fall on his sword.
     
  13. Risasi

    Risasi Member

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    LaVeigh, you've been watching Serenity again, haven't you...
     
  14. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

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    ???

    Haven't a clue. I'm pretty out of is as far as pop-culture is concerned.

    I've just been fantasizing about my preferred outcome for the Bush admin...
     
  15. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    We're already into the "Search for Scapegoats Phase"?

    I guess it's just a byproduct of our litigious society. An incident happens and within hours the great unwashed are calling for someone's head. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that the people calling for scalps usually have no idea what they are talking about. No one posting in this thread has any information but what's been in the media. I certainly hope that none of you are ever involved in anything tough or controversial. I bet if you were, you'd want your actions to be judged on facts established after an investigation rather then public opinion based on media reports.

    Here are some things I've heard and seen posted (not all in this thread) as to how the authorities messed up:

    They should have canceled classes. Sure, easy to say now after you put on your 20/20 hindsight glasses. Without 20/20 hindsight, you're looking at canceling classes at great expense because of what you believe is an isolated crime of violence. I truly believe that if the president had canceled classes because of the first two murders and they had been an isolated crime, many of you same people who are calling for his head for not canceling
    classes would be calling for his head because he's a bliss ninny. I'm quite sure there would be one or more threads here at THR whining about the cowards who run our universities closing everything down at the first sign of violence. I swear many of you would complain if they hung you with a new rope. ;)

    The police should have known that the first murder was the start of a killing spree.

    How in blazes were they supposed to know that? Most murderers have some prior relationship with their victim. A murder by a stranger is extremely rare. So what clue was left at the scene that should have tipped the police off that it was the start of a spree killing? In this case they wasted time and resources looking for some kind of relationship to the victims. Well in virtually every other case, it would have been a waste of time and resources to look for a crazed stranger picking victims at random.

    They should have had a better means of notifying the staff and students. Perhaps they could issue each person a pager like the volunteer firemen wear. That would be pretty expensive, but it's the only real solution. Police with bullhorns?? Yeah right....Obviously you've never been on the police side of that duty. Let me tell you, people will flat ignore you and go about their business. A large percentage of the population walks around in their own little world. In many cases if they hear you, they will think that you couldn't possibly mean them.

    Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

    When did the first officers from other agencies arrive? Do you know? Why would the FBI be called? What federal crime was committed? Where is the nearest FBI field office? How many agents work there? And you're basing all this criticism on the premise that somehow (ESP perhaps?) the chief should have known that this was the start of a spree shooting instead of a double murder.

    By your standards society would slam to an abrupt halt everytime there was a violent crime committed......

    Wait for the facts? Why? It's so much more satisfying to find someone to blame as soon as possible....:uhoh: :banghead:

    Jeff
     
  16. The Amigo

    The Amigo Member

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    No

    Hes not the problem. The problem stems from crazy gun control laws and crazy people.
     
  17. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    Effectively you're right, but I do have a channel. I have a good friend who works on the VT campus along with two sisters, not to mention her husband carrying mail. She reports that all of them were "within yards" of the incident. I have stayed at their house in Christiansburg. They're all okay.

    That's not to say that I can add much at this point. I haven't bugged them beyond checking up on them on Monday. I do have access to private pictures of the campus.
     
  18. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "No one posting in this thread has any information but what's been in the media."

    Well that's not entirely true. I imagine some of us old Hokies still have some contacts in Blacksburg. ;)

    John

    Here's a good pic of the main part of the campus.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Boats

    Boats member

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    One thing is abundantly clear:

    If one is a prospective English major, VT is a diploma mill. The department should perhaps be demoted to a remedial writing shop.

    In his now published "manifesto," and the two plays a former classmate has put online, it is abundantly clear that Cho's literacy operated at nowhere near a collegiate level.

    One can only imagine his application essay.:eek: The man couldn't spell, couldn't employ an adjective properly, and had seemingly no concept of how to get a cogent point across through speech or writing.

    Yet there he was, on track to graduate. He must have been earning "Madman's C's" just for showing up and turning in psychotic and illiterate rants.

    If, (and I strongly suspect that it is), his "visible" written works are wholly comparable to those that may never come to light, VT apparently has little in the way of academic standards so long as one keeps paying timely tuition to attend their liberal arts college.
     
  20. mike101

    mike101 Member

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    Jeff, I have to disagree

    This isn't hindsight. A lot of us were saying, on Monday morning, that classes should have been cancelled, as soon as we learned that 2 hours had passed between shootings.

    And I wasn't referring to the Campus Police Chief. I was referring to local police. Didn't realize that the guy in the news footage was the campus chief. I am assuming that someone actually did call the real police. They don't have to be concerned with school policy.

    As far as notifying students. How about a dozen cops with bullhorns driving around campus, warning people? It certainly would have been better than what they did, which was NOTHING.
     
  21. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Physically, how do you spread the word about such a problem as the first two shootings? Do the classrooms have phones? And, if "runners" are sent around, are they known to the teachers and students? How do those know it's not some hoax?

    A reason must be given as to why folks should leave or lockdown. What sort of reactions can be expected? Is it wrong to expect that some will go running and shrieking in various directions--including toward what turned out to be more shootings? How do you "lockdown" those who are of age to make their own decisions about going or staying?

    I can see griping about the difference between Virginia and Utah, but I don't know what practical thiing could be done by a school administration once the ruckus starts.

    It seems to me that the police process AFTER the second round of shootings began is a more fit subject for discussion--once the facts are known as facts, and not as conflicting stories from the media.

    Art
     
  22. Hypnogator

    Hypnogator Member

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    Known better than what? Apparent domestic violence fatality, the cops are working to ID and apprehend the suspect, then, two hours later, all hell breaks loose in a campus building. Are we to call the FBI, State Police, National Guard and the Citizen's Volunteer Militia every time there is a homicide? I find it difficult to believe that anyone could have foreseen the second shooting rampage, any more than they could have foreseen the first. But what do I know? I only have 20+ years of experience as a Federal Criminal Investigator.
     
  23. mike101

    mike101 Member

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    Not "runners" Art. LEOs in Police Cars. I don't think they would be mistaken for a hoax.

    And sending emails sure didn't work. Maybe they didn't have the resources to blockade the campus, but I don't see why they couldn't secure the buildings. Hell, they lock down schools if some kid brings a toy gun to school. Here, they had two bodies already.

    And suspending classes is a no-brainer. I don't know why Jeff thinks there would be "great expense" involved.

    I also don't think that a college president, or campus police, are qualified to say how response to a murder, or the ensuing investigation , should be handled. College cops are for rounding up drunken frat-boys.
     
  24. jcoiii

    jcoiii Member

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    A bit of a defense for the campus (and outside) police...(as I currently work for a campus police dept)

    How many mass shootings have had a shooting at one time, and a secondary shooting two hours later? One, virginia tech. I would guess if many here, myself included, would respond to a double homicide in a dorm and think "targeted shooting, maybe with someone trying to help who got killed too" or something along those lines. No one would think, well two people are killed, but the shooter will probably come back and shoot more later.

    /end of defense

    Had my campus had a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, we would have locked down immediately and indefinitely in order to determine if the shooter(s) was/were still on campus. My campus is far from the size of VT, and has only three entrances. We could easily block entrance to or exit from the campus. Staff and faculty assist the police in announcing and enforcing the lockdown (read, "building coordinators" spread the word of lockdown and move any students into the nearest classroom.)

    I realize that the VT police thought this was a one-time double homicide, but you lock down anyway. At least, we do.
     
  25. FMJMIKE

    FMJMIKE Member

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    I think whoever made the decision "NOT" to lock down the campus after the first two murders should definitely be prosecuted. There was no murderer in custody nor was the murder weapon. I think you should error on the side of safety. These officials were responsible for these peoples lives! This isn't like...Opppps.......We made a mistake. Let's try something else next time. This is.....Ohhh....The boyfriend did it and 30 more innocent people are DEAD!!! In two hours they could have had plenty of cops on campus. Even though the campus is big it is not like all 2600 acres needed locked down. Only the classrooms, administration buildings and dormitories needed security. Most of the 2600 acres is pasture, woods, barns and athletic fields.
    .
    I also believe whoever was responsible for security at Tech should be fired along with the President. Acting like they had no idea something like this could ever happen is the biggest bag of garbage I have ever heard. Did we not see what the Chechen rebels did to that school in Russia !!! Not Happen here !!! I think they have been living in their Ivory Towers too long. We need a new start with officials that have a realistic view of the world. Our greatest resource, Our children, deserve no less. Plenty of money is spent on the football team. Why not some on security.
     
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