Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?

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ure. Why not? How much could possibly be going on elsewhere, in a place like Blacksburg, VA, at 7:00 AM? Surely a dozen or so police cars with sirens blaring, and PA systems being used would attract someone's attention. And during that 2 hours, I think they could have gotten even more support from VA State police and FBI, and local cops from surrounding towns, if necessary.

I'm afraid you have no concept of the realities involved. Police cars driving down deserted streets warning people to stay in their homes makes a compelling scene in a disaster movie, but in real life, it's usually pretty much a waste. People in their homes, if they hear it at all, would most likely ignore it. If you need to notify everyone in a situation like this you must go door to door. It's the only effective way. Of course that takes a lot of time and manpower.

As for getting support from neighboring jurisdictions and the feds, in two hours you just might have officers arriving in sufficient numbers to begin closing up the campus. Of course given the size of it, you'd have a hard time securing it with a light Infantry battalion.

There was no reason that we know of for the police or the administration to know that this was a prelude to a mass murder. When you can show me a note that the scumbag left at the scene of the first murders detailing his future plans or even his future plans written in the blood of his first victims on the wall, then I will join you in saying the administration and police were irresponsible. But there is no information saying that there was any reason to believe that the first murders were the first step of his master plan.

I mentioned costs in an earlier post. Do you really think that there wouldn't have been a large financial cost to the college if they had canceled classes that late in the day? How many deliveries of perishable food and other supplies do you suppose they would have had to pay for and not use on a campus that size? I don't have any idea what the contract says, but I bet there would have been a lot of hourly workers who would have had to have been paid anyway. You are essentially suggesting that you shut down a small city with no advance notice. Of course there will be a big financial cost to the university. What about the vendors for things lie garbage disposal, contractors performing maintenance or construction work on the physical plant? They would incur costs that the university might have to pick up.

Then there is the time of day the first shootings happened. What percentage of the staff and students do you figure had already left home for the university? Have you ever been involved in trying to get a message to even 100 people? Even with all of the modern communication devices available to us, it still took 4 hours before the majority of people in my unit were notified for a practice alert. A good practice alert was when contact had been made with everyone in under 8 hours.

Why don't you put the mantle of responsibility on your shoulders? You are the college president. Sometime around 7:30 am on a Monday morning you are notified that there has been a double murder in the housing area. There is no information available to you that suggests this is anything more then that. The police are looking for the boy friend of one of the victim's room mates. So you weigh the time of day which makes it impossible to notify staff, faculty and students before they leave their homes, the not unsubstantial cost to the university in money against the possibility that the suspect is still on campus and dangerous. The fact that this double murder is really the first phase of the worst mass shooting at a school in American history never crosses your mind. That's almost incomprehensible.

Perhaps the university should employ a psychic or at least the president should have listened to Coast to Coast Am the night before.....:rolleyes:

I'm quite sure that if this had just been a double homicide and they had canceled classes, we'd see threads here calling for the university president and police chief's heads because they are bliss ninnys.

Jeff
 
The Blacksburg police had nothing to do with anything, besides supplying support to the campus police.
The campus police are deputized through the state police.
They are totally separate from the town police, or even the Montgomery Copunty police.
I saw Hokie cops, State cops, Montgomery County cops, and maybe a Blacksburg car in the various news show.

If you want to rail against someone, at least get the correct people.
 
No - hindsight bias.

The crucial mistake was not banning this kid earlier on and him not getting into the NICS system (although - obviously he might get a gun elsewhere).

Also, allow CCW at schools for responsible adults.
 
The the cops were psychic, I would be with Mike on this all the way, but cops aren't psychic. Of course, if they would have been psychic, they would have stopped this before it happened.
 
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

A simple phone call to each building alerting them of the murder.In my sons school, the main office has a switchboard setup with a speaker in each classroom where the secretary can communicate to individual classes or all at once and get an immediate response from each room by merely speaking into the air.Its not high tech,it certainly would be worth it and absolutly give results in real time.Its not that expensive.
 
gm, I doubt that retro-fitting such a system into dozens of buildings and hundreds of classrooms would come under the heading of "inexpensive", no matter how useful. Miles of wire and conduit plus labor...

Art
 
I doubt that anyone could have stopped this guy. Even if the Police chief had tried to do something, how do you stop a regular looking guy with a couple of concealed handguns? The fact is that VT isn't set up to stop things like this. The school would either have to fully allow their students to CC or else they would have to have the capability to verify with 100% certainty that no one gets on campus with a gun. Other than those two issues there is no way to stop it from happening. The truth is that there are many more effective things the cops could have done, but they didn't and if they got a new administration, that administration would probably make the same mistake if it happened again. If they keep the old idiots, at least they know what can happen and will most likely react very quickly if it ever happens again.
 
I do not believe any practical measure either of these people could have taken after the first murder would have made any difference, so I don't see firing either one of them for that decision. You cannot lock down an area of that size for any length of time without it being a huge problem.

How long are you going to lock it down? An hour? A day? How are you going to take care of the tens of thousands of people you have imprisoned? Are they going to be able to go to the bathroom? How are you going to feed them? And are you going to be able to lock down (or maybe lock up is the better term) something that big in any effective way? There have to be hundreds of buildings with maybe thousands of doors. And when do you lift the lock down? When the crook is caught? When you have strip searched everyone that has been imprisoned? And under what possible authority would anyone have to institute such a lock down in the first place? These are adults we are talking about, not children.

Lock down sounds like a good idea, in a superficial sort of way, but as a practical matter, it really changes very little. It is mostly about politicians and administrators trying to cover their backsides, not about student safety.
 
gm said:
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

A simple phone call to each building alerting them of the murder.In my sons school, the main office has a switchboard setup with a speaker in each classroom where the secretary can communicate to individual classes or all at once and get an immediate response from each room by merely speaking into the air.Its not high tech,it certainly would be worth it and absolutly give results in real time.Its not that expensive.

Yeah, right. A murder has been committed and it's most likely an isolated event, not a prelude to mass slaughter. Locking down, or even alerting the entire campus is a joke - that's like locking down seattle because someone got shot in pioneer square. We live in a free country, not a police state.
 
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

Even if there had been a lock down, because of the first incident, so what? It likely would have been lifted after a couple of hours anyway when they didn't find the murder who was thought to have left campus. Even if it lasted several hours, Cho would have simply waited a little longer. It wasn't like they could lock down the campus indefinitely.
 
"The Blacksburg police had nothing to do with anything"

Well, there's probably a big chunk of the problem, right there. If real police had been involved, immediately, I'm sure they would have come up with a better plan than to do nothing except send emails.

And where does it say that a college president is authorized to call the shots, after a double murder occurs on campus?

As has been noted before, it is a large campus. However, most of it is open land and athletic fields. 3.3 miles? Is that really bigger than most cities in VA?
Remember what I said about Camden? That's not such a small city, but the local police managed to keep everyone out.
 
" am extremely familiar with the campus of Va. Tech. At 7:00 in the morning when the first murders occured the school did not have that many people on campus."

That many people? I can account for nearly 10,000 in 45 buildings. Then there're the numerous dining halls and food outlets.

"The Virginia Tech residence hall system comprises 45 buildings and accommodates approximately 9,100 students." - VT site

___________

Here's a partial list:

Residence Hall Gender Beds Visitation Option Room Types Assigned Groups

East Ambler Johnston Co-ed 406 3 Traditional
West Ambler Johnston Co-ed 882 3 Traditional
Barringer Male 221 3 Traditional
Brodie Co-ed 277 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
East Campbell Female 164 3 Traditional
Main Campbell Co-ed 96 4 Traditional Graduate/Professional Students
Cochrane Co-ed 334 3 Suite
Main Eggleston Female 215 3 Traditional
West Eggleston Co-ed 198 3 Traditional
Harper Co-ed 249 4 Suite
Hillcrest Co-ed 108 4 Suite Honors Community
Johnson Female 181 1,2 Traditional
Lee Co-ed 811 3 Traditional
Miles Male 217 1,2 Traditional
Monteith Co-ed 202 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
Newman Co-ed 274 3 Traditional WORLD Program
New Residence Hall East Co-ed 220 4 Suite Upperclass Students and Transfers Only
O'Shaughnessy Co-ed 341 3 Traditional
Payne Co-ed 209 4 Suite and Traditional Graduate/Professional, Upperclass Students, and Transfers only
Peddrew - Yates Co-ed 219 4 Suite Residential Leadership Community
East Pritchard Male 488 3 Traditional
West Pritchard Male 528 3 Traditional
Rasche Co-ed 286 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
Slusher Tower Female

(Will become co-ed Fall 2007)
324 3 Traditional MOSAIC, starting Fall 2007
Slusher Wing Co-ed 305 3 Traditional WING, Hypatia, and non-theme program residents
Thomas Co-ed 227 3 Traditional
Vawter Male 326 3 Traditional
 
No, the Virginia Tech prez and the local police chief could not have forseen what happened. If they do not learn from what happened, then, I would feel justified in removing them from their positions if more qualified people were available to fill those positions.

Otherwise we are killing the messager like some despot who did not like the news.

dzimmerm
 
March, 2007. From the UVA Cavalier Daily:

"[Virginia Governor Tim] Kaine also announced Thursday that he has signed legislation (HB 3064) requiring state colleges to develop policies for dealing with students who exhibit suicidal behavior. The bill also prohibits colleges from expelling students for attempting suicide or seeking treatment for suicidal behavior."

______________

Some school officials weren't too happy with some of the wording in the bill.

http://clhe2.org/salpw2/details.asp?ID=101&Submit=Go!

"Leaders of the Virginia Association of College and University Housing Officers, and the Virginia Student Personnel Administrators have written to legislators asking them to remove the language that keeps administrators from “acting in the best interest of all students”. In a letter to the Virginia Senate and House,

The concern for us is the wording that states "no student is penalized." This wording is much too vague and essentially ties the hands of college administrators to effectively deal with these situations. "Penalties," means different things to different people, and certainly can mean anything to a student required to complete an assessment, take a leave of absence, etc. (Excerpt from letter to the Virginia House and Senate)."
 
I guess some people are still living in a Pre-Sept 11 2001 mindset. Not to assume a worse case scenario is really juvenile and shows that they are out of touch with reality. The President and Police officials are not the messengers....They are responsible for handling these situations. A responsibility which they failed miserably.

As to the 10,000 people and 45 plus buildings. Wouldn't it had been better to at least made an effort to place at least one Policeman in each building. It's not like these 10,000 people were in their own individual homes. Just an effort would have been better than nothing. No.... The Police were too busy chasing a false lead. That's not being psychic. Thats being incompetent !!! The murderer had time to mail packages and film videos between the murders.
Too bad the cops were not searching for a possible murderer on campus. They had assumed the murderer had left campus !!! An assumption that is criminal and/or incompetent and should be reason for firing/charging those responsible.
:fire:
 
The bill also prohibits colleges from expelling students for attempting suicide or seeking treatment for suicidal behavior."

I would have a question about jurisdiction on that one...a State college or university maybe. It appears that some academia officials had a similar reaction.
 
As to the 10,000 people and 45 plus buildings. Wouldn't it had been better to at least made an effort to place at least one Policeman in each building.

Does the VT police force even have 45 officers?

I find it ironic that there are people who on the one hand claim police can't and don't protect you (something I generally agree on), but on the other hand think somehow they have psychic powers so somehow they "should" have known what to do in an extremely chaotic situation.

The plain fact is that cops are no smarter than the rest of us, and they have no psychic powers with which they can predict the best course of action. About all they can do is follow through with whatever plan someone came up with to deal with this kind of situation and hope it works, while realizing it probably won't.
 
Cops are not a player in this. Their only legal function is to document the mess and other after the fact stuff. Sorry cops, thats what the courts say in defending you when protection does not happen.

On the other hand, those campus officials and legislators who denied a basic human right need to go.

Sam

Sam
 
C.Daddy-

Camden, NJ, 1973. Population about 80, 000, 11 square miles. Because certain members of the Hispanic community were rioting and setting fire to the place, for three nights in a row.

I thought I had posted the details in this thread, but it was in General Discussions.

"In the mid 70's, some of the Hispanic population of Camden, NJ were rioting, setting fires in the downtown area, etc. The police from Camden and surrounding towns cordoned off the whole damn city! My friends and I spent the rest of the night trying to sneak into Camden, just to see if we could. We could not. The only way in would have been to go around Camden, drive to Philly, jump in the Delaware River, and swim over. And Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres."
 
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