Saiga Destructive Device Rumor Question

You would be required to register it as a destructive device. Seeing as you live in CA it would most likely need to be turned in.

crap, just something else I gotta add to the buy em before they ban em' list

Fight it all the way, boys. No way are they taking them/ registering this time.

I hate to see it happen, but plan on seeing the Saiga 12 become an NFA Destructive Device within 12 months because of the new drums.

kcmarine: It will not take any kind of new law to NFA DD a Saiga 12.

I have been thinking about buying an auto 12ga since 2001. I have all ways considered an 11-87, 1100 or maybe the Saiga 12, all ways leaned in the direction of the 1100. But I guess the Saiga 12 will be it.
Guess it will be my first DD.

"It will not take any kind of new law to NFA DD a Saiga 12."
Yea all they have to do is say the word and it will be a DD or other wise generaly illigal.

What is their justfication for possibly ruling it a DD?

And what is to keep them from doing the same to say, a drum fed M1A?

And what is to keep them from doing the same to say, a drum fed M1A?

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The barrel is over .5 inch in diameter. The ATF has the power to declare any gun with a bore of over a half inch a "destructive device" if it doesn't meet an arbitrary and undefined "Sporting Purpose." Basically the ATF has a blank check to declare any shotgun illegal.

Maybe the .410 won't be affected, it is under .50 bore afterall.

Oh F-that. There's more Saigas out there than Street Sweepers and USAS-15s combined. It's not like it's a novelty gun. It's a regular shotgun. The Street-sweeper was DRUM ONLY. I think EAA would fight this. Hell, we gun owners will fight this. This crap stops here and now. Fight it with logic. It's a shotgun. It fires the same rounds as any other shotgun. Who cares if it holds one or one-hundred round. There is nothing in the 2A about sporting purposes.

"This device has only one purpose... devastating destruction"

Yep Nancy, it's a shotgun. That's what they do, blow stuff apart. If anything, the 20 round drum helps enhance the nature of the shotgun, a device that blows stuff apart. Aww too bad children and cops don't like it. Oh well nothing in the 2A says the Saiga-12 has to elicit a smile from Officer Krupke and Timmy O'Toole.

BTW, isn't it up to the Attorney General to decide what's a destructive device and what isn't?

quote:
BTW, isn't it up to the Attorney General to decide what's a destructive device and what isn't?


Unless the Attorney General is Ted Nugent, there will not be much resistance.

I guess that ruins my plans for a 10 ga. gatlin' gun

Producing an accessory (the drum magazine) that virtually guarantees the demise of the product (the Saiga 12) that it's meant for strikes me as a pretty bad business decision. Conspiracy theorist says: Drum-mag makers start rumors of ban to move lots of new product fast, hoping to sell out at least one production run even if a ban does eventually occur.

BTW, isn't it up to the Attorney General to decide what's a destructive device and what isn't?

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The Secretary of the Treasury, of all people, acting under United Stated Code Title 26 (Internal Revenue Law.) The National Firearms Act (NFA 34) is under Title 26; destructive devices are defined, regulated and taxed under the NFA 34. In practice the Directory of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms rules on what is or is not a destructive device, and is or is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, acting under the Authority of the Secretary. I think it still work this way even after the ATF was moved from the Treasury Department to the Justice Department.
[/persnickety details mode off]

Starting usin' em for sport!

I don't have one yet, so I can't, but for those who do and can, I hope you can use your Saiga in some sort of sporting context. NOT that one should need to justify the sporting purpose of a gun, NOT that the 2d Amdt has anything to do w/ "sporting," NOT that the BATF has any actual moral authority on this matter. Just the same, if there's ever a chance for it to matter, I'd like it to be of record that thousands of people use them for .... hunting! Target shooting! Competition!

timothy

Isn't suddenly using drums for a sporting purpose like the guy that used a .50BMG rifle to shoot a moose? IIRC, the .50BMG incident received a brief comment in Cooper's Commentaries a few years ago. I guess it showed a sporting purpose, but I doubt it had much affect on the opinions of the oligarchs and their satanic minions.

All this talk makes me wanna get another Saiga12.....and a drum mag for it.

While the Saiga 12 has been accepted for years as "sporting purposes"
and used as a sporting shotgun for years, what would stop them from
ruling that the 12 ga drum itself (and alone) is a destructive device?
That would be the same logic as the ruling that a silencer is a
"firearm" for purposes of the NFA registry.

Listing (some) shotguns as "destructive devices" with cannon, mortars,
rockets, missiles and bombs under the NFA always struck me as
illogical anyway.

Carl: Yep. It's capricious, illogical and (since this is law!) immoral. I wouldn't feel like I'd violated any deep law of the universe if I had a Streetsweeper (I don't) regardless of its registration status, and as you say, *silencers*? No logic in even pointing out the problem with that, like declaring that "The Protestant Reformation" is a vegetable for school-lunch purposes.

timothy

Producing an accessory (the drum magazine) that virtually guarantees the demise of the product (the Saiga 12) that it's meant for strikes me as a pretty bad business decision. Conspiracy theorist says: Drum-mag makers start rumors of ban to move lots of new product fast, hoping to sell out at least one production run even if a ban does eventually occur.

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For me it's either:

Conspiricy theory #1: Banning Sagias would make other, cheap shotgun makers (like Mossberg) very happy.......

Theory #2: The drum magazine makers are just too stupid/greedy to care---like Olympic Arms getting the dirt cheap 7.62X39 steel-core ammo banned.

While the Saiga 12 has been accepted for years as "sporting purposes"
and used as a sporting shotgun for years, what would stop them from
ruling that the 12 ga drum itself (and alone) is a destructive device?

Click to expand...

I think this is the logical (OK, maybe the least illogical) thing for ATF to do, if they really can’t live with the idea of free citizens having 20 round shotguns. But there are these two quotes from this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=285721

One of those drum makers says he has a letter of approval from the ATF, so I guess we'll see!

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His letter is for his piece of mind because it only addresses whether he can manufacture and sell. The letter does not address whether the use of such a device will trigger a reclassification action of the Saiga 12.

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So if there really is a letter from ATF, and it says the drums can be made and sold without being destructive devices, maybe ATF has closed the door on the idea of declaring the drums themselves as destructive devices. If they change their minds now the drum manufacture may be able to sue for any lost investment he made based on the letter. Good deal for him, as courts sometimes award lost future profit an investment would have made.

But like most things you read on the internet, who know what, if any of this is true.

The wraithmaker website states: Do you have B.A.T.F. approval?
Yes. We received a written approval after a verbal inquiry. This was our very first move in this project.
http://www.wraithmaker.com/

The key words are "they have approval" to not get in trouble.


I find this very similar to the adkins accelerator http://www.firefaster.com/

Adkins at first had some kind of ATF approval for their product to sell a spring loaded buttstock that bumpfires a ruger 10/22. After the product was sold, then came reclassification.

Quote:
Update 12/15/06--

Allegations are being posted on the Web about ATF Agents showing up on customer doorsteps and confiscating product. This is not happening. Please consult the company webpage http://www.firefaster.com/ regularly and treat it as your only reliable source of information. All updates will be made to this page first.

Attorneys for Akins Group Inc. have submitted a written Compliance Plan which is under review by ATF. Upon agreement on the details by all parties, those instructions will be posted here.

If accepted by ATF, that Compliance Plan will contain instructions which, if followed by consumers, will eliminate the need for any face-to-face interaction with any law enforcement people from any agency.

Quote:
Update 12/22/06--
Counsel has approved updating the documentation link: http://www.firefaster.com/documentation.html to include the reclassification letter. Everything is in chronological order. The reclassification letter and accompanying photographs are below the two previous classification letters. Note: though marked "Hand Delivery" and dated Nov 22, it came via US Mail and was signed for at 9:24 AM on December 8, 2006.

Quote:
-- Update 1/9/07--

ATF has published a new ruling in .pdf format here: http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atfruling_2006-2.pdf.

ATF has also published a basic Compliance Plan in .pdf format here: http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/2006-




and on and on.
In the end, customers had to send in the spring and lose their investment amount which I think was close to $1000. There were a quite a few threads on different gun boards about the adkins accelerator. I remember having read quite a few times to buy the accerator before it gets banned. LOL. No such luck, they (the springs) were all confiscated.

The problem with the Saiga drums is that the drum cannot be itself declared a DD. Logic would tell you that maybe it should be that way rather than reclassifying the gun. After all, a gun is legally just the receiver. Why is the receiver itself a destructive device? Its all politics. Sadly, theres no way to fight this because it requires no legislative action. If you think our current administration wouldn't allow this to happen, guess again. The adkins reclassification happened early this year (Jan 2006). Our gun laws and agencies are still at work. No one is likely to overturn our current gun laws. Except maybe the Supreme Court. That would be a miracle.

Some of our recent murders locally were with knife, baseball bat (2),
single shot single barrel hinge action shotgun, and conventional
handgun (2).

Since anything you can do wrong with a gun--like murder--is already
against the law, perhaps if our laws were more concerned with what
people do, rather than what they own, there would be more effect
on criminal behaviour.

most of these pricks making these laws have never been to a gun shop and have no idea what the weapons are or what they cost. some broke thief isnt gonna buy a $500+ gun to rob your grandmother. he's gonna use what he has, which in most cases is something other than a gun.

carl, you should know by now, it's not the criminal's fault, its society's for letting him down.