Saiga vs. traditional mag tube tactical shotgun
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According to an exporter (Freakshow Bullet Co.) the Saiga is legal in its original form so long as the detachable magazine is fixed to the firearm so that it cannot be removed. He apparently ships them over there..... so he says and he is an industry dude so I guess I will believe him unless someone can say otherwise. CA law makes no sense to me and nor do I get excited about trying to understand it.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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No, the biggest drawbacks are:
1. The sights are off, and there's no way to adjust the height and make it hit to the point of aim, so you need a sight/scope of some kind (it needs a taller front sight); AND if you do use a sight/scope, the sight line is quite high from most mounts/rings/scopes.
2. Bad ergos: The long mags are awkward and make it difficult/impossible to shoot quickly from prone - overall they are just less ergo and handy; they are heavy, etc. Some of the bad ergos can be remedied quite nicely with expensive aftermarket parts, but not the mag being in the way. As far as being heavy, see #1 above - the (basically required) mounts tend to be big/heavy.
But they DO have their upsides (extremely fast, extremely reliable, and capacity, capacity, capacity!)
notorious
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Thanks!
I don't think the mag has to be fixed because there is not a pistol grip or any other "evil" part. For example in CA the M14 is legal as long as it does not have a flash suppressor also the regular Saiga rifles are legal because they are just a semi auto hunting rifle. I believe with the Saiga 12 is the same thing it is legal as long as you don't add a pistol grip or convert it to a Kalashnikov type weapon. I could be wrong as I am more familiar with the NY ban but this is what I have read about CA gun laws.
The saigas are far from the perfect shotgun. If you are looking for an all around good hunting shotgun buy an 870 or 500. If you want a kick a$$ AK type shotgun for HD and fun blasting and maybe for deer hunting go for it. I agree with others though, I bet if there is another ban they will probably add the saiga rifles ad shotguns to the list of Kalashnikov type rifles. That is a big if though we will see.
The saigas are far from the perfect shotgun. If you are looking for an all around good hunting shotgun buy an 870 or 500. If you want a kick a$$ AK type shotgun for HD and fun blasting and maybe for deer hunting go for it. I agree with others though, I bet if there is another ban they will probably add the saiga rifles ad shotguns to the list of Kalashnikov type rifles. That is a big if though we will see.
freakshow10mm
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In California you can't have a shotgun with a detachable magazine. If it has a fixed magazine you're fine.
I have the mag locks for the Saiga 12 shotguns. I only ship Saiga shotguns to my business associate in Fresno, PRK Arms. The mag lock is proprietary and is $50.
If you are looking for a Saiga 12 to go to CA, have them ship to me (Freakshow Manufacturing) and I can handle it for you. It's $30 transfer and $30 shipping/insurance. I'm on file with DD's Ranch and R&R Arms. I am the number one importer of Saiga shotguns, AR pistols, and Masterpiece Arms guns to California. The DOJ hates me. That means I'm doing something right.
I have the mag locks for the Saiga 12 shotguns. I only ship Saiga shotguns to my business associate in Fresno, PRK Arms. The mag lock is proprietary and is $50.
If you are looking for a Saiga 12 to go to CA, have them ship to me (Freakshow Manufacturing) and I can handle it for you. It's $30 transfer and $30 shipping/insurance. I'm on file with DD's Ranch and R&R Arms. I am the number one importer of Saiga shotguns, AR pistols, and Masterpiece Arms guns to California. The DOJ hates me. That means I'm doing something right.
Gunfighter123
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Hello,
As I stated in other Saiga S-12 posts ---- the tube fed SG will be like the black powder revolvers . Once they are mainstream -- the tube fed SG will be only used for non-military usage.
As to the sights being"off" --- I have really not seen that as a issue at the Saiga gun Net boards and I have not seen it in person after looking/handleing 30/40 S-12s.
Yes -- with a 10rd. mag it would be hard to shoot prone. UNLESS you tip the SG to the left side when fireing!!!! I again don't see that as a issue as about ALL Military long-arms are mag fed. ---- people could say the same thing about AR15/M16s ---- unless you are REALLY prone , useing your elbows as a "bipod" is the cure.
To those "older folks" like me --- I remember reading things of that nature when the M-14 came out over the Garand.
The Saiga S-12 ,as it is now ,is just the "tip of the iceberg" ----- there are Speed Mag release's ,speed mag wells , double stack hi-cap mags , etc. etc. being made or on the drawing board.
As seen above -- I own most kinds of SG actions , my "go to" SG is now the S-12 -- the rest are gathering dust !!! LOL
As I stated in other Saiga S-12 posts ---- the tube fed SG will be like the black powder revolvers . Once they are mainstream -- the tube fed SG will be only used for non-military usage.
As to the sights being"off" --- I have really not seen that as a issue at the Saiga gun Net boards and I have not seen it in person after looking/handleing 30/40 S-12s.
Yes -- with a 10rd. mag it would be hard to shoot prone. UNLESS you tip the SG to the left side when fireing!!!! I again don't see that as a issue as about ALL Military long-arms are mag fed. ---- people could say the same thing about AR15/M16s ---- unless you are REALLY prone , useing your elbows as a "bipod" is the cure.
To those "older folks" like me --- I remember reading things of that nature when the M-14 came out over the Garand.
The Saiga S-12 ,as it is now ,is just the "tip of the iceberg" ----- there are Speed Mag release's ,speed mag wells , double stack hi-cap mags , etc. etc. being made or on the drawing board.
As seen above -- I own most kinds of SG actions , my "go to" SG is now the S-12 -- the rest are gathering dust !!! LOL
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I would buy a saiga just to play with. Im old school enough that id never grap anything but my trusty 500 pump for real work
. No need to jump all over me but I enjoy the sound of the slide racking back and new shell being inserted and no funny vibrations felt when you pull the trigger. But again im just biased against all semi shotguns so take that with a grain of salt (or two).
. No need to jump all over me but I enjoy the sound of the slide racking back and new shell being inserted and no funny vibrations felt when you pull the trigger. But again im just biased against all semi shotguns so take that with a grain of salt (or two).Mr. Bojangles
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I love my saiga, and I love my 870. Deciding which is better is like deciding between a 30.06 and an M4. Apples and oranges.
missouri dave
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Since any fight involving a shotgun would almost certainly be a shorter range (oh, say less than 50 yards) and likely against a moving target, I can't see how the prone thing can be much of an issue. With a rifle at longer range yes. Shotgun at shorter range, don't think so. Most of the other complaints I've seen here about the saiga aren't that hard to address. Very few weapons are perfect right out of the box with no modification.
notorious
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I don't think you have enough smoothbores there.
...except that the Saiga is probably the single worst-handling firearm I've ever held, the LAST thing I'd want to use on a moving target that was trying to kill me.
It's not about the magazine, it's about the design of the whole thing.
Interestingly, revolvers remain quite popular as carry guns -- not cap-n-ball of course, but little Smith and Wessons that aren't much different from their predecessors from before WW I.
I suspect that the tube-fed shotgun won't be going away soon, either. And actual military use of shotguns exists, but is limited.
notorious
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Tube fed shotguns aren't going away anytime soon. Too many police departments, hunters, sportsmen, etc. all still go to the tube fed pump as the old standard.
Gunfighter123
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I suspect that the tube-fed shotgun won't be going away soon, either. And actual military use of shotguns exists, but is limited.
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Tube fed shotguns aren't going away anytime soon. Too many police departments, hunters, sportsmen, etc. all still go to the tube fed pump as the old standard.
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Yes --- they will not be going away SOON --- I still remember when ALL police had REVOLVERS and what do they ALL have now ???
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Tube fed shotguns aren't going away anytime soon. Too many police departments, hunters, sportsmen, etc. all still go to the tube fed pump as the old standard.
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Yes --- they will not be going away SOON --- I still remember when ALL police had REVOLVERS and what do they ALL have now ???
Uh, some still have revolvers, at least where I used to live. A whole department.
Furthermore, there's a huge difference.
Semiautos (at least some of them) point and shoot very well. If they were as god-awful to handle, compared to a revolver, as a Saiga is vs. most other shotguns, cops would be BEGGING for their revolvers back.
A shotgun has certain purposes, essentially all of which -- defense, hunting, police, military, clay shooting, whatever -- rely on its ability to point and shoot naturally and quickly.
The Saiga 12 is a fine stand-in for a civilian-legal SAW, something that can send a bunch of buckshot downrange quickly. But it does not replace a quick-pointing shotgun.
I don't doubt that someone will come up with a tractable shotgun with a detachable magazine. The Saiga isn't it, however.
Gunfighter123
Member
Hi ABear,
I would be interested if you would post or PM me what PD still uses revolvers as standard issue. Sure, there are a VERY FEW revolvers in use by police but I would guess that 99.9% of ALL police have gone to the auto handgun ---- reason being , higher capasity and faster reloads --- just like the Saiga shotgun.
You may not be aware that in the old USSR almost all the SWAT teams are useing Saiga S-12s ---- if you do a search at the Saiga boards , you will find many reports of people shooting Trap/Skeet with the Saigas and hitting 23/25 birds etc.
Guess they handle fine for those people.
Edit --As you said --- as of NOW , there is a limited use by Military units for the shotgun , I think that will change as we get into more URBAN fighting ,which the SG is great for.
I would be interested if you would post or PM me what PD still uses revolvers as standard issue. Sure, there are a VERY FEW revolvers in use by police but I would guess that 99.9% of ALL police have gone to the auto handgun ---- reason being , higher capasity and faster reloads --- just like the Saiga shotgun.
You may not be aware that in the old USSR almost all the SWAT teams are useing Saiga S-12s ---- if you do a search at the Saiga boards , you will find many reports of people shooting Trap/Skeet with the Saigas and hitting 23/25 birds etc.
Guess they handle fine for those people.
Edit --As you said --- as of NOW , there is a limited use by Military units for the shotgun , I think that will change as we get into more URBAN fighting ,which the SG is great for.
JImbothefiveth
Member
Since the leaders want to leave Iraq, I think urban fighting is going to decline. (Actually, I think it's been on the decline for a while now.)
Gunfighter, why do you give a crap, one way or another?
If you think the Saiga handles like a skeet gun, well, that makes one of us who thinks so, and a lot of us who are probably laughing.
Like I said, detachable magazines are probably in the shotgun's future, but the Saiga leaves much to be desired, whether or not the Russkies use them. The Russians have used all sorts of things over the years, some good, some bad, and some good only because they were crude enough to be shockingly reliable.
Not sure that some discussions are worth having.
Oh, and WRT urban warfare, it's hard to say. A few dead children and shotguns will be vetoed politically, if not tactically, for large-scale military use.
If you think the Saiga handles like a skeet gun, well, that makes one of us who thinks so, and a lot of us who are probably laughing.
Like I said, detachable magazines are probably in the shotgun's future, but the Saiga leaves much to be desired, whether or not the Russkies use them. The Russians have used all sorts of things over the years, some good, some bad, and some good only because they were crude enough to be shockingly reliable.
Not sure that some discussions are worth having.
Oh, and WRT urban warfare, it's hard to say. A few dead children and shotguns will be vetoed politically, if not tactically, for large-scale military use.
Gunfighter123
Member
"Gunfighter, why do you give a crap, one way or another?"
ArmedBear ---- good comeback -- I really don't give "a crap" ---- when I see "info" on the Net -- I ask if it is a OPINION or a FACT.
You have stated your OPINION -- I have stated mine along with some facts.
I have NEVER said that the S-12 handles like a Skeet gun -- only that there are people who have shot skeet with them among other useage.
"Not sure that some discussions are worth having."
I have had polite DISCUSSIONS with other people who disagree with me about the Saiga S-12s --- if we can't be polite , lets take our discussion off line and you can PM me etc.
ArmedBear ---- good comeback -- I really don't give "a crap" ---- when I see "info" on the Net -- I ask if it is a OPINION or a FACT.
You have stated your OPINION -- I have stated mine along with some facts.
I have NEVER said that the S-12 handles like a Skeet gun -- only that there are people who have shot skeet with them among other useage.
"Not sure that some discussions are worth having."
I have had polite DISCUSSIONS with other people who disagree with me about the Saiga S-12s --- if we can't be polite , lets take our discussion off line and you can PM me etc.
notorious
Member
It's a moot point since the People's Republic of California does not allow it anyway.
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I bought the S12, and sold it about 4 days later. The lack of a bolt hold open made it a paid to swap mags (unless you leave them underloaded I guess). Plus it feels rickety to me compared to the Remington 870... and for whatever reason, I thought it kicked more too.
For what its worth, I bought and sold a FNSLP, M1S90, and pumps by Winchester and Mossy.
My Remington 870 (express, Police, and wingmaster) and 11-87P I considered keepers at first shot.
For what its worth, I bought and sold a FNSLP, M1S90, and pumps by Winchester and Mossy.
My Remington 870 (express, Police, and wingmaster) and 11-87P I considered keepers at first shot.
Well they do have a bolt hold open just not a LRBHO and all the magazines are made to be loaded with space left in them. If you think a gas operated shotgun kicks more than a pump I doubt you even fired it. Also I would not confuse light weight for cheapness they are very tough weapons.
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