rangerruck
Member
glad to know that about the les Baers, lot of dudes woudn't , proly. They are a beautiful rifle, though. anyone got a reality check on the new S/w mp15's?
High End AR Advise Needed, Please.
- Thread starter DogBonz
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Rock River Arms or Colt or CMMG... pick you model. Colt is a Machine Gun Company, CMMG is a Machine Gun Company, RRA got into Machine Guns secondary along with Bushy. If you want to get crazy; Knights Armament and Cobb, but it'll blow that $2k faster than you think, just for the bare rifle.
There's a reason Colt is the Main Supplier of M16/M4 and M16/M41's to the US Marine Corps... heck it's the only weapon I have yet to break... I put a M2 .50 down for the count
Side Note: Optic wise, I believe of the 1x powered scopes Aimpoint Comp M4 is the greatest thing out there, IMHO
There's a reason Colt is the Main Supplier of M16/M4 and M16/M41's to the US Marine Corps... heck it's the only weapon I have yet to break... I put a M2 .50 down for the count
Side Note: Optic wise, I believe of the 1x powered scopes Aimpoint Comp M4 is the greatest thing out there, IMHO
HorseSoldier
Member
Does Colt make M16A4s for the USMC? They lost the contract for the M16A2 years ago to FN and got tossed the (then much smaller) M4 contract as a kind of political consolation prize.
Zach S
Member
Did you ask your instructor(s)?
Mike128
Member
Look on ar15.com for more information. Barrel diameter, twist rates, chamber ect. Some things that is constantly repeated is buy a complete rifle/upper from a reputable source and don't put in a target trigger.
Colt always seem to be the top choice. Sabre and LMT are usually close with better barrel steel, M4 style feed ramps, thinner barrel contours, 1/7 twist, chrome lined, ect.
Colt always seem to be the top choice. Sabre and LMT are usually close with better barrel steel, M4 style feed ramps, thinner barrel contours, 1/7 twist, chrome lined, ect.
Thanks for the replies
Ok, to answer some of your questions, my DPMS had been, for the 2000 rounds before the class, flawless. It had not malfunctioned at the range or in the woods. Of course, I have never put 1000 rounds through it in 3 days before. Also, I never dumped 3 mags down range in less then that many minutes before. Also, it has never been dropped, nor used to break my fall before. Also, by the end of day 2, that thing was getting heavy, although I doubt that there is much that can be done about that. Maybe I need to hit the gym a little more.
Lesson learned: My DPMS is very accurate, and reliable when cool. Heat her up, and things start FTF’ing. Wiping down and relubing helped, but did not eliminate the issue. The ammo used was Black Hills Remanufactured, which I have never had an issue with before and has always been very accurate.
When I said I wanted a “High End” AR, I was speaking of quality and reliability, not necessarily price, but those two usually go hand in hand. If someone can tell me where to find an AR that will run like a top all day and is inexpensive, well then I’m all ears. What I was saying was that I am willing to spend that much to get the highest quality that I can. If my DPMS is reliable 99% of the time, I am willing to spend up to that amount to get as close to 100% as realistically possible.
When you consider the cost of a class; the class price, time out of work, gas, tolls, hotel room, food, ammo, etc… The price of the rifle is minimal when you consider that you keep the rifle, and all of that other money is gone. Yes, the rifle is a tool. In this case it is a learning tool, and you can’t really learn if your rifle is down, well except FTF drills. If you don’t learn anything, then all that money is wasted.
Ok, to answer some of your questions, my DPMS had been, for the 2000 rounds before the class, flawless. It had not malfunctioned at the range or in the woods. Of course, I have never put 1000 rounds through it in 3 days before. Also, I never dumped 3 mags down range in less then that many minutes before. Also, it has never been dropped, nor used to break my fall before. Also, by the end of day 2, that thing was getting heavy, although I doubt that there is much that can be done about that. Maybe I need to hit the gym a little more.
Lesson learned: My DPMS is very accurate, and reliable when cool. Heat her up, and things start FTF’ing. Wiping down and relubing helped, but did not eliminate the issue. The ammo used was Black Hills Remanufactured, which I have never had an issue with before and has always been very accurate.
When I said I wanted a “High End” AR, I was speaking of quality and reliability, not necessarily price, but those two usually go hand in hand. If someone can tell me where to find an AR that will run like a top all day and is inexpensive, well then I’m all ears. What I was saying was that I am willing to spend that much to get the highest quality that I can. If my DPMS is reliable 99% of the time, I am willing to spend up to that amount to get as close to 100% as realistically possible.
When you consider the cost of a class; the class price, time out of work, gas, tolls, hotel room, food, ammo, etc… The price of the rifle is minimal when you consider that you keep the rifle, and all of that other money is gone. Yes, the rifle is a tool. In this case it is a learning tool, and you can’t really learn if your rifle is down, well except FTF drills. If you don’t learn anything, then all that money is wasted.
Yes
His response was to look at the better makers (Colt, LMT, LaRue, Sabre, etc) and pick something that I was comfortable with that was mil spec and run with it. He also said that a pound on day 1 will feel like 10 by day 3, so try to stay light and keep the “ornaments” to a minimum. He said more about what to stay away from, such as heavy target barrels, match chambers, delicate triggers, cheap stocks, too many accessories, and/or gimmicks.
His response was to look at the better makers (Colt, LMT, LaRue, Sabre, etc) and pick something that I was comfortable with that was mil spec and run with it. He also said that a pound on day 1 will feel like 10 by day 3, so try to stay light and keep the “ornaments” to a minimum. He said more about what to stay away from, such as heavy target barrels, match chambers, delicate triggers, cheap stocks, too many accessories, and/or gimmicks.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Stops running when hot usually means one of the following things:
1) Needs extractor beefed up with heavy-duty extractor spring and/or O-ring
2) Needs ejector spring replaced
If neither of those two solve it and it only happens when the gun is warm and toasty, then my guess would be that the chamber is tight or even undersized (may even be .223) - which is pretty common in commercial rifles since this helps accuracy and 90% of shooters never get them hot enough to recognize the problem.
Polish the chamber with a jeweler's rouge (or have a gunsmith do it for you) and upgrade the extractor and ejector and you may be able to get the reliability you are looking for at a much reduced price. If heavy is an issue, consider having your barrel reprofiled as well (~$50).
Or you can just get a new rifle that you trust... sometimes that is a better solution if you have lost confidence in the one you have.
1) Needs extractor beefed up with heavy-duty extractor spring and/or O-ring
2) Needs ejector spring replaced
If neither of those two solve it and it only happens when the gun is warm and toasty, then my guess would be that the chamber is tight or even undersized (may even be .223) - which is pretty common in commercial rifles since this helps accuracy and 90% of shooters never get them hot enough to recognize the problem.
Polish the chamber with a jeweler's rouge (or have a gunsmith do it for you) and upgrade the extractor and ejector and you may be able to get the reliability you are looking for at a much reduced price. If heavy is an issue, consider having your barrel reprofiled as well (~$50).
Or you can just get a new rifle that you trust... sometimes that is a better solution if you have lost confidence in the one you have.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Bingo. The rifle cost is minimal in the grand scheme of things. Whicih is why $1,300 for a 6920 is nothing. But like I said, most haters and talkers on the internet do not go to classes, and just whine that Colt is $200 more than their Bushmaster and "isn't any better but costs more" ...folks crying over $200 aren't spending like you are on expensive training.
Most of the custom makers charging $2,000 for an AR are not charging that kind of money because the rifle is more reliable. It's because they have fancy triggers, match-grade barrels and other nonsense that you don't need. These are high-end fun guns. Not work/duty guns. Who cares if the gun is 0.5moa? Or has an 8oz trigger? Pretty much the only trusted trigger out there is the RRA 2-stage, and that had problems early on. All the fancy light triggers break from hard use. Most who want the most robust AR will stick with the factory trigger, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. Also, you don't need 0.5moa to hit or win a gunfight.
AFAIK, Colt does everything you need and does the most of any maker out there, custom or not, to produce the most reliable rifle you can get. It's that simple.
Colt is a tool, so it too can break. And they do break. The chances of breakage are less. That's what you're paying for. Most serious shooters know that any AR-15 bolt is capable of breaking around 10,000rds. Sometimes at 6,000rds or after you should keep and eye on it. Especially on the higher pressure carbines. What you don't want is a bolt breaking at round number 1,154 because it ran fine for 1,000rds on slow-fire, but when you had to do a triple mag dump the heat didn't agree with it and it cracked.
Most of the experts consider DPMS a "3rd tier" AR. They comment often about how these brands break down in classes a lot more often. You just gave them another example. I'm not bashing your rifle, but like it or not - something about the way DPMS builds a rifle led to your FTF during heavy use. What if there is SHTF and you need to run the rifle like that? Aren't you glad you found out in training that it won't cut the mustard instead of during an emergency? So, as a result of that - I'd say your money and time was not wasted. It was just part of the greater learning curve. Yeah, it stinks that you lose out on class time to fix breakdowns, but in the bigger picture this was productive.
That's looking at it from the bright side.
Thank you to all.
I appreciate all of the replies.
Bartholomew- I will rebuild the bolt and make sure to use good parts and will look into having a smith polish the chamber. I will keep my DPMS because it is very accurate, but will restrict it's use to the range and "fun" events.
Don't Tread- I will look into the Colts and try to compare them all. I had previously not considered Colt because of claims of them being over priced, but after looking around, they seem to have quite the following.
I think that my next class will be some time away, maybe in the fall, so I have some time and will do my homework.
I appreciate all of the replies.
Bartholomew- I will rebuild the bolt and make sure to use good parts and will look into having a smith polish the chamber. I will keep my DPMS because it is very accurate, but will restrict it's use to the range and "fun" events.
Don't Tread- I will look into the Colts and try to compare them all. I had previously not considered Colt because of claims of them being over priced, but after looking around, they seem to have quite the following.
I think that my next class will be some time away, maybe in the fall, so I have some time and will do my homework.
Outlaws
Member
Colt is a bad company for reasons of principle, but I am not so naive to say they suck or are over priced.
tommytrauma
Member
I'm a pretty serious training junkie, and started my carbine classes with a Rock River. Pretty early in though, I was exposed to Defensive Edge's SLR-15 rifles.
The SLR design was based on the features that actually worked for shooters. It uses a flat top upper to allow for optics as the shooter chooses, but comes with a detachable carry handle incoorperating hex screw fasteners rather then the usual 'snag point' knobs generally found on detachable carry handles. The rear sight is a same plane sight, eliminating the POA / POI difference between the two apatures generally seen on AR sights. It's also an A1 style sight, as A2 sights sometimes get messed with, ruining a zero, nad few shooters actually adjust their sights once a zero is achieved. The Sully stock is the same length as a M4 stock at the second detent, giving an extremely functional LOP, but is robust as hell, and stands up to the old .mil going prone via the buttstock technique, jam clearing via butt slam, etc better then collapsable stocks. The Sully stock is also slightly weighted, giving the weapon a good weight distribution for one handed pointing during mag changes and such. The extraction system is simply the most robust system I've ever seen on the AR, as anyone who has stood to the right of a shooter with a SLR can attest. The front of the mag well is textured, facilitating the mag well grip style of carbine handling. The Commander model gives a longer sight radius then found on other 16" ARs, making hits easier. I'm sure I'm forgetting features, but overall the SLR is a supurb shooter. I've had mine through several multi day, high volume classes with nary a hiccup.
Colts are great rifles. They aren't the only option for a reliable AR though.
SLR (WHen it was nice nad new. It's a bit more beat now, and no longer black.)
Detachable carry handle with snagless screws and same plane sight.
Textured mag well.
The SLR design was based on the features that actually worked for shooters. It uses a flat top upper to allow for optics as the shooter chooses, but comes with a detachable carry handle incoorperating hex screw fasteners rather then the usual 'snag point' knobs generally found on detachable carry handles. The rear sight is a same plane sight, eliminating the POA / POI difference between the two apatures generally seen on AR sights. It's also an A1 style sight, as A2 sights sometimes get messed with, ruining a zero, nad few shooters actually adjust their sights once a zero is achieved. The Sully stock is the same length as a M4 stock at the second detent, giving an extremely functional LOP, but is robust as hell, and stands up to the old .mil going prone via the buttstock technique, jam clearing via butt slam, etc better then collapsable stocks. The Sully stock is also slightly weighted, giving the weapon a good weight distribution for one handed pointing during mag changes and such. The extraction system is simply the most robust system I've ever seen on the AR, as anyone who has stood to the right of a shooter with a SLR can attest. The front of the mag well is textured, facilitating the mag well grip style of carbine handling. The Commander model gives a longer sight radius then found on other 16" ARs, making hits easier. I'm sure I'm forgetting features, but overall the SLR is a supurb shooter. I've had mine through several multi day, high volume classes with nary a hiccup.
Colts are great rifles. They aren't the only option for a reliable AR though.
SLR (WHen it was nice nad new. It's a bit more beat now, and no longer black.)
Detachable carry handle with snagless screws and same plane sight.
Textured mag well.
Do you have the standard three gas rings or a mcfarland one piece? One of my AR's will not run for crap with the mcfarland gas ring when it gets hot. CLP the crap outta it and it runs again fro a while, but it's only a matter of time before it chokes.
1. black extractor insert.
2. heavy (green maybe) extractor spring.
3. X-ring or #60 o-ring.
4. might try switching either to or from the McFarland gas ring. (The McFarland is a solution looking for a problem in most cases...)
What kind of ammo were you using? Stay away from Wolf lacquer coated for classes.
1. black extractor insert.
2. heavy (green maybe) extractor spring.
3. X-ring or #60 o-ring.
4. might try switching either to or from the McFarland gas ring. (The McFarland is a solution looking for a problem in most cases...)
What kind of ammo were you using? Stay away from Wolf lacquer coated for classes.
rangerruck
Member
there is something else to think of here, and that is , check the thread just above this one called , the army is testing.... again....
All of the high end Military units, have allready switched to h/k fn, or some other type, that is piston drive. the 416, xm8, SCAR, etc. That just has to say something about reliability.
All of the high end Military units, have allready switched to h/k fn, or some other type, that is piston drive. the 416, xm8, SCAR, etc. That just has to say something about reliability.
JohnBT
Member
"the army is testing"
I just bought my first AR, so the fad might be over.
It's happened more than once during the past 50 years. I buy a gun and then it's discontinued. Beware.
Heck, I once bought a Sako Finnfire and Jewell stopped making triggers for it the same week. I did find two through benchrest.com because someone felt sorry for me and my bad luck.
Jinxed
I just bought my first AR, so the fad might be over.
It's happened more than once during the past 50 years. I buy a gun and then it's discontinued. Beware.
Heck, I once bought a Sako Finnfire and Jewell stopped making triggers for it the same week. I did find two through benchrest.com because someone felt sorry for me and my bad luck.
Jinxed
Thanks to all
I will continue to do my homework and keep looking at my options.
Even though I like the idea of piston guns, I’m not sure that I want to go with a piston upper at this point because of the mixed reviews that I have seen.
I was running the standard 3 ring gas ring setup. Ammo was Black hills Remanufactured that I never had any problems with in the past.
I will also look into Defensive Edge's SLR-15 rifles. I have not heard of them before, but I am sure that there are a lot of things that I have never heard of that are good products.
I will continue to do my homework and keep looking at my options.
Even though I like the idea of piston guns, I’m not sure that I want to go with a piston upper at this point because of the mixed reviews that I have seen.
I was running the standard 3 ring gas ring setup. Ammo was Black hills Remanufactured that I never had any problems with in the past.
I will also look into Defensive Edge's SLR-15 rifles. I have not heard of them before, but I am sure that there are a lot of things that I have never heard of that are good products.
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