gunnerh
Member
One vote for the Mini-14. I have one (early stainless with decent scope) shoots minute of jack rabbit after jump around the back of my pickup seat all week. I have used it coyotes also. Ammo is at every Wally mart.
M-1 carbine vs. Ruger mini 14.
- Thread starter Ignition Override
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ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Well, Let's See
Setting aside that the M1 Carbine is light and fun and sweet, and that the Ranch Rifle is rugged, I notice one thing right off.
The 30 Carbine round weighs about twice that of the .223/5.56 and has about the energy between 50 and 100 yards that a .357 mag has up close. Feel free to correct my math if that's wrong.
(However, you're better off with soft points rather than hollow. The Carbine isn't always happy with hollowpoint.)
My reliability money would be on the Carbine after 100 rounds.
Accuracy is probably a wash. From the anecdotal evidence I've encountered, I guess the M1 Carbine is somewhat more accurate at 100 yards, but I don't know if it's an order of magnitude.
You should get better penetration with the .223/5.56 round, given the substantially higher velocity.
Analytically, the Ranch Rifle (especially the newer one) is probably the superior weapon under clean/light duty conditions.
As conditions get icky and mucky, I would lean toward the Carbine. No scientific reasoning for that, just a sense that it's more likely to work under harsher conditions.
My ammo prices over the last two years have had .30 carbine pretty much on a par with .223 ball.
The .30 carbine ammo is easier to carry. The mags are arguably more reliable. The gun is lighter.
I don't see a clear winner.
It's going to come down to some personal preference aspect or some scenario aspect that makes one preferable to the other.
All other things being equal (ammo availability and such), I think I'd go with the M1 Carbine.
But I'm also a sentimental sap.
Setting aside that the M1 Carbine is light and fun and sweet, and that the Ranch Rifle is rugged, I notice one thing right off.
The 30 Carbine round weighs about twice that of the .223/5.56 and has about the energy between 50 and 100 yards that a .357 mag has up close. Feel free to correct my math if that's wrong.
(However, you're better off with soft points rather than hollow. The Carbine isn't always happy with hollowpoint.)
My reliability money would be on the Carbine after 100 rounds.
Accuracy is probably a wash. From the anecdotal evidence I've encountered, I guess the M1 Carbine is somewhat more accurate at 100 yards, but I don't know if it's an order of magnitude.
You should get better penetration with the .223/5.56 round, given the substantially higher velocity.
Analytically, the Ranch Rifle (especially the newer one) is probably the superior weapon under clean/light duty conditions.
As conditions get icky and mucky, I would lean toward the Carbine. No scientific reasoning for that, just a sense that it's more likely to work under harsher conditions.
My ammo prices over the last two years have had .30 carbine pretty much on a par with .223 ball.
The .30 carbine ammo is easier to carry. The mags are arguably more reliable. The gun is lighter.
I don't see a clear winner.
It's going to come down to some personal preference aspect or some scenario aspect that makes one preferable to the other.
All other things being equal (ammo availability and such), I think I'd go with the M1 Carbine.
But I'm also a sentimental sap.
Dave Markowitz
Member
Maybe in something like sheet steel but against brush, I'd bet on the .30 Carbine for better penetration. The round is actually known for pretty good penetration, especially with Ball. In contrast, I have personally had multiple 5.56mm M193 rounds stopped cold by a green sapling no more than 3" thick at a range of about 40 yards. (.303 Mk.VII sailed right though it.
)Ignition Override
Member
At the risk of disappointing those with more enthusiasm for the Ruger, I just bought the (Auto-Ordnance) M-1 Carbine. Can not afford/"justify" both + two types of ammo. The store still had one brand-new carbine in stock, but had numerous Mini 14s.
The comparisons here were enjoyable and educational.
I also bought the 30-round clip, even though the smaller size was included.
Now, I must spend money to join a rifle range and can't wait to shoot it!
It would be more fun if Somebody within 30 minutes of here (even west of Jackson or near Holly Springs) would let me give them $20/month, just to shoot some cataloupes from Schnuck's or beer cans in a low-lying pond or small creek. Any cans would be attached to long strings for retrieval because I hate to see litter all over our green Tennessee landscape. People would not believe how nice some foreign lands look, where pride costs nothing (maybe our freedom means that we should litter...).
Ejected shells would be picked up by the Carbine Student. Maybe I am crazy, but $400 for the first year (includes NRA fee) at the better range seems nuts, in my opinion, simply to legally shoot something (near a city) more solid than black rings on a piece of paper. Any .22 can do that.
Anyway, it would be so much simpler if a guy could pay somebody a little bit of money for this instead of joining a range, following a "'successful interview". About one square mile would work for bullets which first go into water, mud or floating "Wild Weasel" canteloupes/ 'Taliban tomatos', if you prefer. The irresponsible people out there over many years with neither self-discipline nor integrity mess it up for the rest of us. An old acquaintance not far from here does not want 'his' deer to be scared away for an hour or two. Contact with any similar ideas. Beating a dead horse.
Otherwise, is there a mail-order place where one might save on good (American etc...) $20/50-round box .30 carbine ammo, or by the case, before the prices keep going up?
The comparisons here were enjoyable and educational.
I also bought the 30-round clip, even though the smaller size was included.
Now, I must spend money to join a rifle range and can't wait to shoot it!
It would be more fun if Somebody within 30 minutes of here (even west of Jackson or near Holly Springs) would let me give them $20/month, just to shoot some cataloupes from Schnuck's or beer cans in a low-lying pond or small creek. Any cans would be attached to long strings for retrieval because I hate to see litter all over our green Tennessee landscape. People would not believe how nice some foreign lands look, where pride costs nothing (maybe our freedom means that we should litter...).
Ejected shells would be picked up by the Carbine Student. Maybe I am crazy, but $400 for the first year (includes NRA fee) at the better range seems nuts, in my opinion, simply to legally shoot something (near a city) more solid than black rings on a piece of paper. Any .22 can do that.
Anyway, it would be so much simpler if a guy could pay somebody a little bit of money for this instead of joining a range, following a "'successful interview". About one square mile would work for bullets which first go into water, mud or floating "Wild Weasel" canteloupes/ 'Taliban tomatos', if you prefer. The irresponsible people out there over many years with neither self-discipline nor integrity mess it up for the rest of us. An old acquaintance not far from here does not want 'his' deer to be scared away for an hour or two. Contact with any similar ideas. Beating a dead horse.
Otherwise, is there a mail-order place where one might save on good (American etc...) $20/50-round box .30 carbine ammo, or by the case, before the prices keep going up?
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I bought a former GI carbine a while back. Before I got around to shooting it, one time I pulled back the charging handle, as a routine safety measure when picking up an unattended weapon, and the whole bolt assembly ejected from the weapon. I wrapped the bolt assembly in a paper towel, planning to have it looked at, but the wife was housecleaning and tossed the wrapped bolt assembly into the garbage. That is my experience with the M1 Carbine. Not a good first impression, to say the least.
22/22mag
Member
Ignition Override I have bought FMJ and Soft point .30 carbine from Georgia Arms check them out.Here is my Auto Ord .30 carbine with a wood folding stock and side see-thru scope mount.
StrikeEagle
Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 709
I have both, and have had and shot them since the 70's.
The M-1 Carbine is superior, IMO. It's a thoroughly proven combat arm, capable of serving under the very hardest conditions. I can't say that about the Mini. The Mini just seems clunky and dinky next to the Carbine.
The .223 round is the better 'stopper' of the two... but at the ranges you mention, the Carbine is fine.
The M-1 Carbine is superior, IMO. It's a thoroughly proven combat arm, capable of serving under the very hardest conditions. I can't say that about the Mini. The Mini just seems clunky and dinky next to the Carbine.
The .223 round is the better 'stopper' of the two... but at the ranges you mention, the Carbine is fine.
SSN Vet
Member
man....you got to move out of the city.
I thought land was pretty cheap in TN.
Had a co-worker move down there two years ago and they got a lot of house and a lot of land for $100K
ThomasT
Member
This is a little different than what you listed, but have you thought of the pistol caliber carbines for your home defense gun? The Marlin model 9 can still be found on gunbroker for around $300.00 to $350.00. THe last one i bought cost me $286.00 total. The ruger pc9 is more expensive but is a very well built gun.
My shooting buddies son killed his first deer with a Marlin 9. He said the deer ran about 40 yards and died. Just about like any other gun making a lung shot.
Nines are cheap to shoot, have exelent SD ammo available, and have almost no recoil or ear busting muzzle blast.
Most people will pooh pooh the idea, but a .22 semi auto rifle works much better than you think for defense. A brand new ruger 10/22 cost around $175.00 or my Walmart has new Marlin model 60s for about $130.00.
My shooting buddies son killed his first deer with a Marlin 9. He said the deer ran about 40 yards and died. Just about like any other gun making a lung shot.
Nines are cheap to shoot, have exelent SD ammo available, and have almost no recoil or ear busting muzzle blast.
Most people will pooh pooh the idea, but a .22 semi auto rifle works much better than you think for defense. A brand new ruger 10/22 cost around $175.00 or my Walmart has new Marlin model 60s for about $130.00.
1lostinspace
member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 124
Get an AK for about 500 and get it over with.
Also if you want good stopping power go with 7.62x39 with SP is hard to beat
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=9
Also if you want good stopping power go with 7.62x39 with SP is hard to beat
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=9
roguechild
Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 6
weak and underpowered
Got rid of my M1 Carbine
Cartridge is really weak and underpowered.
The carbine was extremely easy to shoot, small and
very very accurate.
Great gun for police as mine was originally a police dept. gun.
Yeah, if you are looking for what is essentially a handgun cartridge then
the carbine is for you.
If you want some velocity the Mini 14 is about the same size package,
However when you are pushing a round that fast there are also a few
negatives.
Got rid of my M1 Carbine
Cartridge is really weak and underpowered.
The carbine was extremely easy to shoot, small and
very very accurate.
Great gun for police as mine was originally a police dept. gun.
Yeah, if you are looking for what is essentially a handgun cartridge then
the carbine is for you.
If you want some velocity the Mini 14 is about the same size package,
However when you are pushing a round that fast there are also a few
negatives.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Thanks Keith. I enjoyed reading that and share your feelings for the M1.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Ratshooter, The Marlin Camp Carbine also came in .45acp.
ThomasT
Member
Hello JimmyRay,
I know the Camp Carbine comes in 45acp. You don't see them much and when you do they are normally around $500.00 or so. Plus ammo is more expensive and since the 45 is a low pressure cartridge it doesn't gain the velocity boost the the 9mm enjoys.
My freind in N. Carolina wanted one for quite a while. He finally found one for $450.00 and bought it. He had problems with the bolt over riding the rounds. I told him the mag springs were most likely weak. After that i think it fell out of favor with him.
If a bigger bullet than the 9 is wanted the Ruger pc40 or the inexpensive Hi Piont is an option. I had forgotten in my original post that i own a Hi Point 9mm that my son has at the moment. I paid around $150.00 for it. The only FTF i had was when i tried lead bullets in it. The nose dug into the feed ramp. Other than that its a great shooter out to a hundred yards or so. It also has some of the most useable sights i have ever looked through.
I know the Camp Carbine comes in 45acp. You don't see them much and when you do they are normally around $500.00 or so. Plus ammo is more expensive and since the 45 is a low pressure cartridge it doesn't gain the velocity boost the the 9mm enjoys.
My freind in N. Carolina wanted one for quite a while. He finally found one for $450.00 and bought it. He had problems with the bolt over riding the rounds. I told him the mag springs were most likely weak. After that i think it fell out of favor with him.
If a bigger bullet than the 9 is wanted the Ruger pc40 or the inexpensive Hi Piont is an option. I had forgotten in my original post that i own a Hi Point 9mm that my son has at the moment. I paid around $150.00 for it. The only FTF i had was when i tried lead bullets in it. The nose dug into the feed ramp. Other than that its a great shooter out to a hundred yards or so. It also has some of the most useable sights i have ever looked through.
mnw42
Member
Ignition Override
Member
The problem now is that the brand-new carbine misfires.
A local Deputy gave me a good idea where to go shoot.
But with a good brand-new round in the chamber, most of the time it just clicks.
After about 5 minutes, I managed to shoot about 0 shells.
Everything is clean and looks perfect. Then called the gunsmith at the gun shop, and he said to force the bolt forward with some force. Despite his advice, it fired about five times, but otherwise just made a 'click'. It was awkward not knowing whether it would work.
Will take it back to the shop.
A local Deputy gave me a good idea where to go shoot.
But with a good brand-new round in the chamber, most of the time it just clicks.
After about 5 minutes, I managed to shoot about 0 shells.
Everything is clean and looks perfect. Then called the gunsmith at the gun shop, and he said to force the bolt forward with some force. Despite his advice, it fired about five times, but otherwise just made a 'click'.
It was awkward not knowing whether it would work.Will take it back to the shop.
Oohrah
Member
I own all three rifles discussed. 30 Carb, Win., Mini 14,81 Series, and
a couple of SKSs. With FJ bullets the .223 or close up 7.62x39 is a better
stopper. With expanding at 100yds and under I would pick the 30 Carb.
using Hornady 100gr half jackets as the king of the pick. It parts a
running jack rabbit, and instant kills on coyotes and feral shepard sized
dogs. Feeds well in my carbine and out performs my .357 when driven at
2000 fps. The second choice being the .223 with expanding or hollow
point.
All have a positive side to them along with malfunctions limited to
magazines on one, rather than an ammo problem. The Carb. magazine
was thrown away after a failure to feed a second time. The others
never a failure yet.
a couple of SKSs. With FJ bullets the .223 or close up 7.62x39 is a better
stopper. With expanding at 100yds and under I would pick the 30 Carb.
using Hornady 100gr half jackets as the king of the pick. It parts a
running jack rabbit, and instant kills on coyotes and feral shepard sized
dogs. Feeds well in my carbine and out performs my .357 when driven at
2000 fps. The second choice being the .223 with expanding or hollow
point.
All have a positive side to them along with malfunctions limited to
magazines on one, rather than an ammo problem. The Carb. magazine
was thrown away after a failure to feed a second time. The others
never a failure yet.
Ignition Override
Member
A guy should not admit this, but due to this total ignorance of semi-auto ops, I never knew that the first round in the chamber must come from the clip, due to the 'lip'.
Also, many new guns reportedly require a bit of oil-so spake the man at the gun store today. The weapon was delivered into the caring hands of the knowledgeable.
Pardon the confession outside church. It is just barely Sunday morning now on this hotel computer...
Also, many new guns reportedly require a bit of oil-so spake the man at the gun store today. The weapon was delivered into the caring hands of the knowledgeable.
Pardon the confession outside church. It is just barely Sunday morning now on this hotel computer...
toivo
Member
I guess it's irrelevant since you already bought your M1, but I thought since people were throwing the SKS into the mix that I'd throw in the Saiga in .223 with the 16" barrel:
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Firearms/G039/G039.jpg
Under $300 last time I looked.
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Firearms/G039/G039.jpg
Under $300 last time I looked.
Titan6
member
Normally magazine, not clip.... Now go forth and sin no more.
Ignition Override
Member
1) How about a .30 carbine bullet's ricochet energy?
Is it possible to generalize about the approx. range of a bullet fired into water at about a 2-3 degree angle. i.e. from a standard Remington box?
I suspect that most bullets might tumble or 'wobble' up to about half of their normal max. range-maybe much less.
After seeing quite a splash (missing the apple or cantaloupe-whichever "attack fruit"), maybe they skip and travel less than a quarter mile or so, if at all?
2) What are HMJ bullets?
A site, "chuckhawks.com. had interesting descriptions of various weapons etc, and stated that the M-1 carb. HMJ bullet is quite lethal (within whichever short range).
Is it possible to generalize about the approx. range of a bullet fired into water at about a 2-3 degree angle. i.e. from a standard Remington box?
I suspect that most bullets might tumble or 'wobble' up to about half of their normal max. range-maybe much less.
After seeing quite a splash (missing the apple or cantaloupe-whichever "attack fruit"), maybe they skip and travel less than a quarter mile or so, if at all?
2) What are HMJ bullets?
A site, "chuckhawks.com. had interesting descriptions of various weapons etc, and stated that the M-1 carb. HMJ bullet is quite lethal (within whichever short range).
Tarvis
Member
wow, what an interesting topic to comment on for my first post. First off: credentials. I bought a mini 14 ranch that was originally a police dept gun for $400. Since then, the only problems i have had were crap magazines (of course), reloading (brass problems: mis-shaped shoulder from brass out of my dad's mini 14), and the scope i put on it (never buy millet). Now, as far as carbines go, i have read a bit and i picked one up once (cool, huh). I consider myself impartial to opinion and base what I think and say on logic and scrutiny of ze facts.
My questions are these:
1. what are you using it for? killing running rabbits at 10-200 yards id say mini14, tested and proven over the heavier carbine. Ballistically, .223 has the advantage as a larger diameter bullet is not necesary. Is it for Home defence?? Lord, i pray im not your neighbor when you light up an intruder. Try a shotgun or possibly a pistol for the house to save collateral damage. Plinking(cantalope)/shooting pictures of Hilary Clinton at the range? Either is a good choice, though if i went tomorrow and had a choice, i'd choose the carbine as ive never shot one and its a cool old gun.
2. Whats your price range?? I don't know what carbines go for "new," but a new mini is moving upwards of $6xx, more towards the AR range (ive seen em built for $750). I bought my mini used and in excelent shape for 2/3 the new price. My rifle is just as good as new and will do anything one from the store will. That being said: make sure you always always check the tell-tail signs, such as excessive wear, bore pitting, bad finish yada yada.
3. As far as ammo is concerned, thats really a question of what you are using it for. You want to know about hollow points? I dont think a pumpkin will feel differently if you shoot it with a HP or a FMJ. Shooting small furry things? HP definetly preferred for .22 LR, but this is a 30 caliber cartridge designed for people killin. Remember, this is a war gun (albeit a light model). .30 carbine shells got plenty of poop for small critters, and possibly up to antelope sized game. I'm not sure how .223 and .30 carb compare, but .223 is capable of taking deer sized game (seen it done). If you're looking to defend yourself at home, once again shotgun is the preferred short-range weapon, but it is a free country.
Closing statement: Opinions are like a**h*l*s, everyone has one and they all stink. If you buy a carbine and like it, great. if you buy a mini 14 and like it, also great. If you think one is better than the other, well maybe it is for you and what you were using it for. In a perfect world, you would buy both and a ton of ammo, shoot until your shoulder bleeds, then decide which is best for what application.
EDIT: as far as accuracy goes on the mini: it is true, not a target rifle. Wasn't made to be. Its a truck gun that sits in the rack collecting grime dust and goo, until the unsuspecting coyote is caught by suprise, or yonder jack rabbit ventures too close. Why do they make 20-30 round clips? Because if at first you dont succeed, try try try again. Besides, youre not gonna use it for a biathalon are you?
My questions are these:
1. what are you using it for? killing running rabbits at 10-200 yards id say mini14, tested and proven over the heavier carbine. Ballistically, .223 has the advantage as a larger diameter bullet is not necesary. Is it for Home defence?? Lord, i pray im not your neighbor when you light up an intruder. Try a shotgun or possibly a pistol for the house to save collateral damage. Plinking(cantalope)/shooting pictures of Hilary Clinton at the range? Either is a good choice, though if i went tomorrow and had a choice, i'd choose the carbine as ive never shot one and its a cool old gun.
2. Whats your price range?? I don't know what carbines go for "new," but a new mini is moving upwards of $6xx, more towards the AR range (ive seen em built for $750). I bought my mini used and in excelent shape for 2/3 the new price. My rifle is just as good as new and will do anything one from the store will. That being said: make sure you always always check the tell-tail signs, such as excessive wear, bore pitting, bad finish yada yada.
3. As far as ammo is concerned, thats really a question of what you are using it for. You want to know about hollow points? I dont think a pumpkin will feel differently if you shoot it with a HP or a FMJ. Shooting small furry things? HP definetly preferred for .22 LR, but this is a 30 caliber cartridge designed for people killin. Remember, this is a war gun (albeit a light model). .30 carbine shells got plenty of poop for small critters, and possibly up to antelope sized game. I'm not sure how .223 and .30 carb compare, but .223 is capable of taking deer sized game (seen it done). If you're looking to defend yourself at home, once again shotgun is the preferred short-range weapon, but it is a free country.
Closing statement: Opinions are like a**h*l*s, everyone has one and they all stink. If you buy a carbine and like it, great. if you buy a mini 14 and like it, also great. If you think one is better than the other, well maybe it is for you and what you were using it for. In a perfect world, you would buy both and a ton of ammo, shoot until your shoulder bleeds, then decide which is best for what application.
EDIT: as far as accuracy goes on the mini: it is true, not a target rifle. Wasn't made to be. Its a truck gun that sits in the rack collecting grime dust and goo, until the unsuspecting coyote is caught by suprise, or yonder jack rabbit ventures too close. Why do they make 20-30 round clips? Because if at first you dont succeed, try try try again. Besides, youre not gonna use it for a biathalon are you?
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I cleaned my Mini-14 yesterday after I put about three hundred rounds through it. No malfunctions, of course, which I can't say about an AR-15 (AR15=jam-o-matic). It took me about five minutes to clean the rifle. Of course, it helps that the bolt doesn't get covered in crud everytime I pull the trigger. I sure wish the AR-15 was as well-designed.
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