The NRA is Pro BATF?

"Keep tampering with our Rights and you'll swing from a rope, like a pinata, We Promise!"

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That will sure work to persuade people on the fence about guns that we are not loons

We MGers have been the bastard stepchildren of the gun culture ever since, "the contituency that dare not speak it's name".

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I'll stand with you guy's,

For the main topic I refer everyone to page one,

Now for the Pictures on page 2 I state, The 2nd amendment IS NOT about hunting,

As for MG's the way it went down was 922(o) was added ILLEGALY during the midnight session, when it went to Reagen's desk he saw it and asked the NRA if he should sign it or not the NRA said "go ahead we will get rid of it in court"
Well it's been 21 years and I cant get a Standard Army issue M-16.

I'll stand with you guy's. I just joined yesterday. I don't know of any better way at this time to further the cause. I don't believe in all of their practices. I think their general image (from talking with anybody) is not that great. Nonetheless they are on my side as far as the 2A.

Reading through some old posts, I ran across this thread, and read where folks were complaining about "instant gratification" and thought hmm.

Well, I do not require "instant gratification" but certainly would like to see a real effort regarding the overturning of the 1934NFA and 1968CGA; however with the attitude of the NRA concerning both, I doubt that it will change as the attitude of "who cares" has been around over fifty-years.

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Denny, while you're resurrecting old posts, ancient magazine articles, and fifty-five year old issues would you mind reminding President Truman to send me an invitation to his daughter Margaret's wedding? That could be one of the more useful applications of your skill and I'd surely appreciate it.

In return I'll tell Wayne LaPierre to drop everything going on now and focus on your preoccupation with repealling the 1934 National Firearms Act. You've waited long enough and it's surely appropriate for those who are battling current issues to take a breather and satisfy you. We shouldn't care about such matters as present day gun confiscations, today's proposed gun control laws and the need to fight against them, or the prospect of one of two committed anti-gun Democrats being elected to the Presidency. You want your machine guns, dammit, and that stinky Franklin D. Roosevelt won't let you have them.

Of course it might be useful to recognize that if you're not allowed to own or have any guns you certainly won't be allowed to have any machine guns either, unless you rename them something like "Poop-Poop-a-Doops" so that everyone is fooled. But you could do that now, and anyway there's no point in burdening you with that suggestion.

Doubt is all you want. My sources are former board members of the NRA.

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OK, which ones? Were they even on the board in 1982? How about 1986?

As to the NRA's political activity, who do you thing prodded the Senate to probe ATF back in 1982? Ruby Ridge occured in 1989.

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Why would the NRA try to disband the ATF in 1989 after Ruby Ridge, when they had attempted the same thing in 1982; but then changed their mind? You suggest that the NRA had the "ATF defeated on the verge of disbandment." Could you point me towards the bills in Congress to disband the ATF in 1989? Show me where GHWB indicated he would sign such legislation? I ask because I was alive, in the U.S., and somewhat active in RKBA then and I do not recall this.

As to the Hughes Amendment being a last minute add on, yes, it was, but the NRA made no attempt to convince the POTUS to veto rather than sign.

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You should read Dave Hardy's legislative history of FOPA. He explains what happened clearly and without unnecessary conspiracy-mongering. The Hughes Amendment was added last minute on a voice vote. Once this happened, the House bill was different from the Senate bill. This required the Senate to send their bill to committee. If the bill was sent to conference to be resolved, it would likely die (just as it had for the previous seven years). The NRA encouraged Senators to adopt the bill with the Hughes Amendment in order to get the good parts of the 1986 FOPA, believing that they could challenge the law in court.

Now having adopted that strategy, why the hell would they ask the President to veto the bill? It would have been better to risk the House-Senate conference than try something that stupid, so I am not sure why you would criticize them for that unless you simply were not aware of the history of the bill.

O, and for the record, the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act had been proposed every year for the previous seven years and was continually shot down in the Democrat-controlled House since it was next to impossible to get it through the committees without the approval of the Democratic leadership. In fact, the 1986 FOPA is one of only TWO bills to ever be successfully passed on a discharge petition. We came phenomenally close to no FOPA at all - no protection for gun shows, no prohibition on centralized registration, no interstate travel safety net, no mail order ammo, no being able to recover costs against ATF, etc. So it wasn't like the NRA was offered an easy choice and took the bad one. They were offered a tough choice - swallow the poison pill and get the good part or take nothing at all.

Thank you for acknowledging the NRA sold out on the Hughes Amendment.

Hope "you" wake up before the NRA compromises are our guns away

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I gotta tell ya, and I'm someone that own's a safe full of them, machineguns are a niche thing and you are advocating the giving up of 100 other things to "stand true" 100% in some kind of all or nothing scenario.

Given the choices at that time, gaining all the things FOPA included was a win compared to getting nothing at all and still having the NFA registry open.

Sucks, but that's life.

Surrender what, logic? The fight has been going on for decades and I can only ask where you have been if you think anybody is surrendering.


"If we kill the ATF, won't we be killing the cash cow too?"

Got a link on this quote or is is just hearsay that somebody said they heard from somebody who knew someone who was told it happened? For instance, did this actual quote appear in the NRA board minutes? A signed letter by an NRA executive? Anywhere at all?

"Hope "you" wake up before the NRA compromises are our guns away."

More nonsense.

John

Thank you for acknowledging the NRA sold out on the Hughes Amendment.

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See? There is our problem. What I see as smart politics that saved me any number of rights, you see as a sell out. Apparently you would have rather the NRA took nothing and go into eight years of the Clinton administration with no FOPA to protect gun shows or gun owners and hope that the same people who passed the 1994 ban, Lautenberg and the Brady Bill would have overlooked MGs for another eight years rather than "sell out."

I take it by your silence that you have chosen not to address the other issues I raised?

I get tired of the NRA bashing. Instead of holding their feet to the fire, why don't you:

1.) Hold your elected representatives
2.) Party
3.) Press

responsible... They are the ones that signed, endorsed, didn't report the issues.

The NRA isn't magic, they are a good org of folks trying to do their best.

swallow the poison pill and get the good part or take nothing at all

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This IS how we will lose our rights, one day a a situation might come up (if SCOTUS goes anti) where Congress will say "Ok then we will let you keep rifles and pistols, but assault weapons and NFA items will be confiscated" then what?

If SCOTUS goes bad this WILL happen and if the NRA sells us out again maybe we need to rethink their position a bit.

where Congress will say "Ok then we will let you keep rifles and pistols, but assault weapons and NFA items will be confiscated" then what?

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If SCOTUS goes anti there is little that will stop what you describe anyway, regardless of what NRA or anyone else does.

If you really believe NRA has this much power you need to go back and take another civics class, seriously.

Don't believe all the crap they send you in the mail. If they had any real power they would have used it by now one way or the other.

Best they can do is a nudge here and there and there's never been a single thing they have done to prove otherwise.

You're beating on NRA like every gun law on the books is their fault simply because you can't figure out who else to blame for it.

If you really believe NRA has this much power you need to go back and take another civics class, seriously

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I don't believe they have that much power, but what I meant was if the NRA supported a ban like that.

Don't believe all the crap they send you in the mail

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I'm not a member so I don't get their mailings

You're beating on NRA like every gun law on the books is their fault simply because you can't figure out who else to blame for it.

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I never said that, just on FOPA they road a check they could not cash, on the AWB it was the people who removed their reps from office who voted for it, and obviously the were still a shooting organization during the NFA and GCA, and I happen to support their position's 98% of the time it is when they ( a nationally recognized group) decide to let one go "for the greater good" that something needs to be said.

I think I will send a bit more money to the NRA after reading some of this.


One question I have: If you don't support the NRA, what are you doing to support gun rights? Instead of talking about what the NRA is NOT doing, tell us what you are doing and what those you support are doing!

Who, besides me, is NOT ready to surrender?

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I'm with you, I'm not ready to surrender. I don't want to give up and let a bunch of illogical, chust-thumping, single minded, unrealistic, Constitution quoting lemmings lead the charge for my rights.

Being able to quote a single famous phrase or spout "Shall not be infringed means what it says!" hardly qualifies one to deal with politics in the real world. I see a lot of bravado and accusations but little proof. Lots of big talk, lots of accusations, finger pointing, and mud slinging but little in the way of real proof. So, I ask, show me the money baby, come on. Show it to me!

Give me the tapes and transcripts of your conversations with NRA board members. Get me a quote from a board member in 86 to support your claim the NRA didn't ask Reagan to veto a bill that reversed some of the most draconian laws facing gun owners. Provide me proof that all of the NRA believed that a 17.75" barrel wasn't a big deal based on the opinion of the writer who wrote that article. Does Zumbo speak for every gun owner too in this fantasy world? Show me the poll that proves gun owners don't care about SBRs, SBSs, cans, or MGs.

I won't surrender but it isn't to anti-gun zealots. I'm going to fight the ridiculous gun right absolutists too. They are just as bad as the antis and more damaging to the normal gun owners than 10 Brady-ites. Their world might be full of rights that can never be abridged but that isn't the real world we actually live in, sorry to say.

I won't surrender but it isn't to anti-gun zealots. I'm going to fight the ridiculous gun right absolutists too. They are just as bad as the antis and more damaging to the normal gun owners than 10 Brady-ites. Their world might be full of rights that can never be abridged but that isn't the real world we actually live in, sorry to say.

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"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." -Samuel Adams

csmkersh

Where were you doing the NFA hearings and signings? It's your fault... You sold us out... :banghead:

Instead of focusing on mistakes that are damn near 100 and 50 years old respectively, why don't you focus on where we are at now. The NRA is a great organization. Activism, that is what changes things.

Or do you want a cookie for being MORE right than they.... were (with the full benefit of hindsight)?

Yeah, NRA sucks.

I sent them $35 and they haven't done anything yet.

Lord luvaduk!

Now do folks see why we stopped the Political part of Legal and Political?

Enuf politics. Go to APS.

Art