Stereotyping.

It's true about the exception.
You may be the exception, but you'll one day tire of being lumped in with the rest of the guys like that who aren't the exception.

I had long hair for a long long time. I cut it to donate to the charity locks of love and went to a high and tight. The overnight difference in my appearance (I usually went around with 2 or 3 days beard) from long hair and scruffy weightlifter to buzzcut weightlifter dude gave me a great appreciation for how my appearance effects my life.

Perform an experiment: Don't rock your hat at all. Wear some pants that fit. Wear a polo shirt. And, then go walk down the street or through the mall.
The difference will be massive.
And, it doesn't owe to the hypocrisy of people. You're the one using these outward signals to send a message. You will eventually learn what message you want to send and how much you're willing to give up in exchange for rockin' your hat sideways and such.

Though, I won't argue your point that predators come in all shapes and sizes.

"Ball caps backwards, pants hanging down, weird haircuts, eyeballing everyone who goes by."

"Now its baggy pants, backward caps, and a cheap tactical looking knife."

you pretty much just described me other than I tend to wear my hat forward or sideways not backwards, and I carry good knives, I assure you im not a a threat to you or yours unless you make it so.

hell im more of a threat to the people you just stereo typed

body talk, speech, eyes all play more of an important roll in my judgements than apperance, wolves come in all shapes and sizes.

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When it comes to your appearance, you are the one that chooses how you want people to see you and judge you.

You wear the same stuff and act the same way as the guy who pointed a machine pistol at a croud of people at a club I used to work at. So to me, you are that guy until proven otherwise. If you want to be lumped in with criminals, try to look and act like them. If you don't want to be mistaken for one, then you might not want to look and act like them. Because to those of us that have seen the bad side of "thug life" gone wrong, you are a threat until proven otherwise.

If you walk up to me at the mall, I'm going into condition yellow, and I'm going to be concerned about the safety of the people with me. But if you throw on a polo and some jeans that fit, I wouldn't think twice about it.

Think about it this way... If I dressed up in a nazi uniform, and then thought people were being judgemental for making assumptions about me, I'd be pretty silly, right? Sure, I probably haven't shot any jews, but I look like someone who did. I look like people who did horrible things, so it doesn't matter what my actual intentions are.

Now you can apply that to anything else, in this case dressing like a thug. You may not be a thug, but you sure are wearing thug's uniform. If you look like the guy who almost shot up my club, I'm going to associate you with that guy. Thugs do a lot of bad things, and that is why people associate you with bad things. Simple as that.

Think of some of the things that people who dress like that do. There are a lot of people who have been wronged in some way by thugs and they will look at you like you are the same as the person that wronged them. To you it may just be fashion, but when you see some lady glaring at you at the mall, maybe instead of feeling rightious about yourself and thinking that she is a b**** for judging you without knowing you, maybe you should consider what you look like to her. You might look like the guy that raped her, mugged her, shot her brother, stole her car, broke into her house or something else. Usually guys in polos or t-shirts that fit don't bring that kind of feeling out in people, because usually it's not the guys in polos and t-shirts that go around raping, mugging, shooting, stealing, and burglarizing.

expvideo wrote:

Think about it this way... If I dressed up in a nazi uniform, and then thought people were being judgemental for making assumptions about me, I'd be pretty silly, right? Sure, I probably haven't shot any jews, but I look like someone who did. I look like people who did horrible things, so it doesn't matter what my actual intentions are.

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I'm glad you brought that up.

Some people are kinda preturbed that they get stereotyped a certain way when they are the exception. We've seen examples on this thread.

I am one of those that assert that the outward appearance you project is your choice and the consequences are your own.


Even so, I have to watch my OWN outward appearence.

My hair is about 1/8" long all over-- it is practically a shaved head; I have tattoos (I made sure to place them where they are covered in my professional life), and sometimes I have a goatee. Moreover, the tattoos that I have have a certain esoteric and abstract quality to them. If you didn't know thier philosphical meanings, you may choose to fabricate your own meanings. (They have to do with philosophy.)

Living in South MS, I prefer the shorter hair due to the heat and humidity. It also makes getting ready for work in the mornings a LOT faster. I used to have hair below my shoulders, at one time however.

There are certian ways that I CAN'T dress if I don't want to be percieved as a Skinhead. I am sure that would go over VERY nicely considering I work at an 85% minority school.

I can't go out and buy a pair of Dock Martins and wear them with fatigue pants to work. I DO have a pair of Dock Martins AND fatigue pants that I wear deer hunting. The deer fear my Nazi-esque persona!




-- John

I profile, stereotype or whatever else you wanna call it.

I dont care since I dont subscribe to the PC religion.

You can do whatever you want, so long as it's legal.

You can use common sense criteria based on behavior.

You can profile.

You can be a full blown racist, crazier than an outhouse rat.

As long as you obey the law, do whatever you need to in order to protect yourself.

Common sense usually works best.

I find that avoiding places where stupid, and especially stupid impaired people congregate keeps me out of a nearly limitless degree of trouble.

I don't go to bars, especially bars where stupid people hit each other.

I don't [knowingly] associate with drug users or go to places where drugs are sold or used.

I avoid habitual criminals. I'd rather pay Walmart or Best Buy prices than save some money by buying from thieves.

These simple rules have largely minimized [but not eliminated] my need to use firearms for defensive purposes.

Zach, I con't think guys who look like you describe yourself are those who get profiled much around here. It is always the Vato's and blacks. But, we don't have a problem with crime being perpetrated by white men in leather jackets who carry a knife and firearm, it is probably 90% by Hispanic gang types and a few blacks and white guys.

Why should I even care if some Mitty in 5.11's and a photographer vest stereotypes me? In the end he's just wasting energy.

Uh-oh people, Gunkid's in condition orange!

I think a member of another forum said it best:

"For me situational awareness is about assessing a situation and making informed decisions based on careful observation and rational analysis.
Assumptions and prejudices compromise awareness and make one weak and prone to potentially disastrous error.
Bigotry is just another form of panic and you beat it the same way. Stop, Think, Observe, Plan."

I have always said... "There are stereotypes for a reason".
If you look and act like the people who are perpetrating crimes, expect to be associated with them.
If you want to look like you are a part of the thug culture, dont get upset when you get hassled.
If you want to look like you may be a part of the Latin Kings... expect for it to cause you issues.
If you are 6'4" muscled, wear combat boots, tight t shirts, and are bald... people will be intimidated.

I learned a lot of this from my father, before I was really old enough to observe it on my own... and my life experience has just reinforced it.


Jim

Boy does this thread wander all over the place.

I just wanted to duck-in and say that most people look like who they are, and that's a good thing for those of us who don't care about PC or some punk's civil liberties as much as we care about our own safety.

Your average street criminal isn't very smart, and will usually dress and look the part. Dark clouds on the horizon don't always bring rain, but more often than not they do.

If you are 6'4" muscled, wear combat boots, tight t shirts, and are bald... people will be intimidated.

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Or - A true Texan friend of mine went to San Francisco for business. He is a big strong guy and wore jeans, boots and fancy cowboy shirt with pearl buttons and a shark's single tooth necklace. Very cowboy here in the country.

When he got to the airport in San Francisco, many men wanted to be his special 'friend'.

So it depends.

those of us who don't care about PC or some punk's civil liberties

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those of us who don't care about PC or some Jew's civil liberties

those of us who don't care about PC or some Negro's civil liberties

those of us who don't care about PC or some homosexual's civil liberties

those of us who don't care about PC or some Christian's civil liberties.

those of us who don't care about PC or some Gun owner's civil liberties

Really not much difference in the statements is there?

If anybody's civil liberties aren't safe, nobody's are

Treo, I was thinking of typing a response similar to yours but then I realized that the OP is talking about being stereotyped by some guy. Not being profiled by a cop, but just being stereotyped by some guy.

There is that

I'm going to go back to my original position on this. It's a historical fact that no government has been able to abrogate the civil liberties of any people ( American Indians, Blacks, Boers , Gypsies, Jews , Christians. and Kurds to name a few) W/out the express consent of the general population . Generally made up of "just guys"

Stereotyping is far less as bad as racism. It's sometimes a necessity. Sometimes unnecessary. In Europe, the way you dress will determine if the waiter will take your order. I've been told that people think this way. And you can take advantage of this. You can control what people think by your dress, words, body language.

Stereotyping

Funny how everyone gets upset when gun owners are stereotyped. And think that it's a bad thing. At leased when it's done to them.

I look at peoples behavior. If a dog bites you, do you fear all dogs?? Or just watch for the same behavior patterns in others??

As far as a persons apperance. I think Ted Bundy, John Jassey, and others love the way some of you think. That thought process helped them out.

Remember when you guys were younger? Did you all dress like your parents? Or like they thought you should.

So should people stereotype every body in a flanel shirt and ball cap as a KKK member? NO THEY SHOULD NOT!!!
That kind of thinking is stupid. And if you apply it to your-self. You will see why it is stupid to apply it to others.

Funny how everyone gets upset when gun owners are stereotyped. And think that it's a bad thing. At leased when it's done to them.

I look at peoples behavior. If a dog bites you, do you fear all dogs?? Or just watch for the same behavior patterns in others??

As far as a persons appearance. I think Ted Bundy, John Jassey, and others love the way some of you think. That thought process helped them out.

Remember when you guys were younger? Did you all dress like your parents? Or like they thought you should.

So should people stereotype every body in a flannel shirt and ball cap as a KKK member? NO THEY SHOULD NOT!!!
That kind of thinking is stupid. And if you apply it to your-self. You will see why it is stupid to apply it to others.

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It's hard to apply it to myself, because I don't dress like a criminal.

You can deny all you want that little thugs aren't all criminals and pretend that we actually live in your PC little world. I have seen enough violence and crime in my time on this earth to know the difference between someone I would be cautious around and someone I wouldn't. You are very self-righteous now, but I'm willing to bet that when a group of these thugs walks down the sidewalk toward you and eye-balls you like you're an easy target, you probably lose that PC smugness pretty quick.

So which are you? A hypocrite or delusional?

Funny how everyone gets upset when gun owners are stereotyped. And think that it's a bad thing. At leased when it's done to them.

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To be fair many gun owners often deserve the stereotype, and I've met enough borderline psychopath firearm enthusiasts that I would probably subscribe to that stereotype if I wasn't so deeply entrenched in the culture. I for one don't bring up my hobby of firearms until I know somebody really well because so many gun owners act like racist, tinfoil hat-wearing manchildren. I'm sure all of us can think of another gun forum that highly reinforces this stereotype . I know that if you tattoo an AR-15 bolt onto your bicep and have "mexico border minuteman" coffee mugs, you're going to be perceived as weird as heck at the office and be worthy of that stereotype.

expvideo

Mabey if I was a coward I could see people walking down the sidewalk as a threat?? Or mabey you just see any people not like you as a threat???

I am A 6 foot 3 inch 220 pound Native American. And I don't feel threatend by people walking down a sidewalk. I have seen a lot of bad things in life. I walked into a crack house to get a friends sister out. And love it when people that have no idea about my life call me names.

But I guess you know everything about my life. So where did I leave my collection of buffalo head pennies back in 1972????
Also if you feel that every one is a criminal, mabey you should turn in your guns and seek mental health help.

I am going to explain in very pure and simple terms why what people are describing here in “profiling” is different from impeding anyone’s civil liberties:


What people here are describing is a thought process that they go through that is based upon some belief or stimulus.

What they are NOT describing is TAKING ACTIONS based upon such thoughts—only a situation of readiness.

The last time I checked, it was still legal for a person to have THOUGHTS.

The last time I checked, our thoughts were still part of OUR Civil Liberties.

Or shall we call the “Thought Police?”



I swear that I think a good portion of our society live in a state of Cognitive Dissonance.


Anyone can look up the FBI Crime Statistics and see it broken down by demographics.

I can read them and see that per capita, there is a HUGE disproportion of the crime committed by one demographic group.

Now, if I point that out, I would be immediately labeled a “Racist.”

One of the strongest arguments that would be leveled against me would be that the crime condition doesn’t exist within that group based upon their demographic breakdown (in this case, Race), but instead by those that are involved in a certain lifestyle.

They, of course, would be right.

However….

If I then base my assumptions on those that make an effort to seem to be a part of that lifestyle, I am then told that I am being prejudicial based upon appearance.

So which it is?

You CAN’T choose one from Column “A” and one from Column “B.”


You simply run out of excuses after a while.

And we are still left with the same reality.

The only thing, at some point, you can do is tell us to walk around utterly oblivious to our surroundings.

You go first.


You are going to have to decide: Is it some condition that exists within certain demographics? Or is it a certain behavior/choice of some that exist some people?

I reject the notion that it is someone inate within a demographic.

That leaves me with people's personal choices.

When a person choose to present themselves to the world as if they were part of that troubled group, they will be responded to EXACTLY as they have chosen to be responded to.

If that is inappropriate, what EXACTLY is your solution???

Don't even bother with assuming the best of everyone. Impossible. And it asks people to NOT apply extrapolation. Applying what a person has learned to current events is the VERY defination of wisdom, and it is what knowledge is based upon.

Don't say treat everyone equally with suspicion. It is impossible. EVERYONE prioritizes threats. Animals do it, so does the military. It is simply impossible to keep everyone and everything equally on your threat assessment in the real world.

Don't say get to know me before you make an assessment. Don't have time to meet and speak with every single one that I pass. And if I did, you'd likely call the police on me for harassing people, ironically.




My grandfather used to tell me a very powerful proverb:

“Truth doesn’t care if you believe it or not.”


And I want to remind us ALL of one thing:


The WRONG kind of prejudice is one that is prejudicial against a person for things that are outside of their realm of control, or are natural conditions.

How you dress, how you act, and the things that you do, are NOT outside of your realm of control.

You choose the condition, and you choose the ramifications of the former choice.

Prejudice is not, in itself, a bad thing. Kinds of prejudice are.

For instance…

I find myself overly prejudice against child molesters. It matters none to me that they may have served their time and have been released. Studies suggest that it impossible to “cure” a child molester’s manner of thinking.

While I am no expert on the topic, I a wary enough that I would NEVER allow one unsupervised with my child or otherwise be in a position to approach my child.

Right now, if you are finding yourself in agreement with me, YOU ARE PREJUDICED.

See how that works?


-- John

Mabey if I was a coward I could see people walking down the sidewalk as a threat?? Or mabey you just see any people not like you as a threat???

I am A 6 foot 3 inch 220 pound Native American. And I don't feel threatend by people walking down a sidewalk. I have seen a lot of bad things in life. I walked into a crack house to get a friends sister out. And love it when people that have no idea about my life call me names.

But I guess you know everything about my life. So where did I leave my collection of buffalo head pennies back in 1972????
Also if you feel that every one is a criminal, mabey you should turn in your guns and seek mental health.

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Whatever man. I almost got beaten to death by a guy who looked exactly how you described yourself, ironically. I had apparently offended him by asking him not to throw someone off of a balcony in his drunken stupor. Even more ironically, he thought I was a coward too, because when I got to the point where I was pretty sure he was going to kill me, I pointed a pistol in his face and escaped to my car and left. What a wuss.

Yet, I don't hold any grudge or prejudice against 6'3" 220+lbs native Americans. Because that was just one guy.

But nearly every little piece of sh** thug I've met was a criminal. So yes. If you dress like one of the people I've seen commit some very violent crimes, I will lump you in with them. I haven't seen a bunch of native Americans threatening to shoot crowds of people. I have seen thugs do it. So I will judge the thugs.

It is as simple as that. I'm not a coward. But I am aware of what is going on around me.

It has long been my observation that stereotypes have a basis in fact.

Stereotyping. Generally speaking, trouble looks like what it is, and trash looks like trash.

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Exactly.

I understand that I as an individual have the right to protect myself by assuming that if you look like a thug (the smart ones don't) you are one until you prove otherwise. If I do so no one's civil liberties are infringed. That said, this

for those of us who don't care about PC or some punk's civil liberties as much as we care about our own safety.

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is not (IMO) an idividual statement. It is a statement that it's OK for the state to violate the civil liberties of whatever constitutes "punks" these days in the name of "our (notice it's a collective pronoun) safety".

That was my one and only concern W/ the statement.

or those of us who don't care about PC or all the treaties we entered into W/ the American Indian as much as we care about our own safety

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or those of us who don't care about PC or the civil liberties of the black guy we're about to lynch as much as we care about our own safety

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Slightly different wording,same rationale

Treo,

I think you are taking this to an institutional level wherein this is not the topic we are discussing here.



-- John