Pocket Carry Challenge

Thoughts-

-Pocket carry is another tool in the toolbox.
-Pre-grip is another tool in the toolbox.
-No tool is ever any better than the user of said tool.


Folks, especially new folks to concealed carry , need to stop and remember, there is no holy grail, or absolute in all of this. There are simply too many variables amongst persons, where they live, environments they must be in, and tasks.

Bring the work to you, don't go to the work- mentors
This is something those of you that were apprentices heard so often.
It does not matter what industry you apprenticed for, it applied, and still does today.

Simple, if you are working on something, bring in close to you , so you can see it, and have more control with being able to brace yourself.

Don't have the work "out there" where you all contorted and your human being, gets hand cramps, and stiff necks, and the normal things bones, muscles, and nerves will do, being in a uncomfortable position.

You bring a plate of food close to you.
High chairs and booster seats are used for babies and kids...
Same principle.


It ain't cheatin' if'n it works- instead called "ingenuity" - mentors.

You will have to just accept some things I am about to share, because I will not explain myself, as I don't have to, and some things must stay private.

No disrespect, still have some you folks ever paid attention to how and where some criminals carry weapons?

Hint: They ain't trying to look or act like TEEM SEEL, or SWAT.

Yes, some gangs use the gal to carry the gun , loose in a purse and when the signal is given, she moves toward "shooter" who gets the gun, and "put a nine in your arse".

That gal also may have a gun stuck in her Small of Back, and the shooter, can access a number of ways.

Gang members are not the only ones that carry in front of pants, without a holster either.
Most of my dealings have been off mid line, on weak side, for a "cross draw" sorta draw if need.
If need, the gun can go back to front of pants, and "retention" is done with weak hand, allow strong hand to hit , or whatever needs doing.

A lot of the retention drills law abiding are taught, means using strong hand to retain gun, leaving weak hand for use.


I was raised...
WE cheated.

High Risk industry, and we cheated big time. Criminals cheat, so why shouldn't we.

Our clothes were modified. Tailors and seamstresses "tweaked" our clothes.
Yeah, I/we did not always use a holster.
The gun was secure, concealed, easy to get a grip on.
I was taught to draw and shoot weak hand as well. We all were.
Criminals watch hands, often times they have cased you and know your strong hand.
They will impede strong side, and will be watching strong side.

So "maybe" the gun weak side, was not in a "holster" , and you can shoot through the tweaked coat pocket.

Before the law changed, the "wallet" for a High Standard Derringer, was a neat tool for the tool box. These wallets are not legal now...

In the movie, Way of The Gun where is James Caan Gun?
The scene where he steps out, and is asked to show he is not armed.
He was armed, and he had a gun...
Hint: He had a firing grip on his gun, when he showed he was not armed.

One has to access themselves, be brutally honest about what they can and cannot do, and get someone to teach them.
Then continue with quality practice.


I will not share some things on a public forum, besides, criminals already know this stuff, just no need to assist a wannabe criminal.

No, I still do not always use a holster.
In some of what ...
For blending in, and giving perceptions, not using a holster was best.

Sorry, but I was raised with 3 rules of gun safety, hot ranges, big boy rules and whatever else.

Some THR members have met me, spent time with me, and you would have to ask them if they knew who, what, or where I was carrying concealed.

I was dressed in jeans, tucked in oxford shirt, no coat.
I have had more than one gun on person.
I have had my hand on a gun more than once in various settings, including driving, and riding in a car, and seated in a restaurant.

The BGs often know more about the where, when and how, of concealed carry, than the law abiding, and will use this against you.
Granted it depends on the Model of Criminal.

As some of the criminals have better concealed carry guns, holsters, mag carriers and clothing than law abiding.
Some...it looks like a IDPA/ISPC/3Gun match going on.
I have watched this live, and on tape.

-Don't look like prey, think like a criminal.
-Think out of the box.
-Access with brutal honesty
-Get quality lessons/training, and continue quality practice.

Just because something works for you,does not mean it will work for me.

Then again, some of what I was raised with , would get me yelled at.
My world, so being a rebel, outlaw, crazy, or unconventional was "normal".
Whatever "normal" is supposed to be.
I dunno, never have, never expect to know...don't care if you want to know the truth.

-The more tools in the toolbox, and the more tools one knows how to use, the better equipped they are to handle situations in need of repair.

Look guys, pocket carry, center of back or on your hip, under your arm, it is your problem to figure out. I have carried for 26 years or almost. and have never even put a hand my gun for protection but i will when i feel worried about something it will be out quickly ,to me center of back for me would be the worst place to carry right next to hip as i don't wear a coat except ride or winter time and i don't want to learn 2 or 3 ways to carry . That can get you killed just changeing how you do carry for how your dressed. Pick one and stay with it. My right front pocket is my main cc location and if 2 guns are with me my ankle is for the other gun. I carry a small lite 38 in my pocket and when travel'n 32 as backup for the 38. You know what you can't (practice) for ,,, what's going to happen when it really goes sideways. Deal with it...

Because just like you can observe stupid people doing stupid things sometimes crazy people do crazy things. Maybe he really didn't want your change, but wanted you to start thinking of something other than him jumping you to get your wallet, car keys & wife/daughter. We don't know his intentions.

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His intentions were spelled out in the conditions of the scenario. You can what-if anything, after an answer is presented, but that changes the pre-existing scenario.

At the normal distances involved in what was presented, accessing an IWB rig isn't going to happen, either. Instead, you'll end up with your hand, and arm, pinned in your clothing, while the attack proceeds. Or not, but THAT wasn't in the original scenario, either.

CCW is 90% + behind the action-reaction curve. Beginning in Condition White is like that. Even Yellow puts you at a disadvantage. Leaving the gun where it sits, and opening distance solves all of the perceived problems. It may not be manly enough for some, but the less you have to fight, the less the chance that you'll have to bleed.

This is why pepper spray is part of my every day carry system.

While I don't want "man with a gun calls" constantly, I can weak hand brandish mace fairly willy nilly, against even low level questionable threats. Such as panhandlers, groups of guys with attitude problems approaching me to ask what time it is while I am out with my girl etc.

All the while strong hand is ready to draw as I spray the Pepper as a distraction, if they come at me or go for their own weapon.

When tasers get small enough I will probably replace the pepper canister with one. Until then though my spray is indisposable as my "threatening" weapon for legal purposes.

I have had groups of 5 guys scatter and run when I whipped it out. Where had it been my pistol that same group may have decided to do their thing before I felt comfortable getting it out at a legal level.

Pocket Carry Challenge #1:

Then, have an unknown contact (a friend) come up to you and ask you for change. His hands will be exposed and he'll just be talking to you, so you won't have any justifiable reason to pull the gun. He refuses to leave you alone and will engage you verbally.

As soon as your hand goes to your pocket, he gets hostile and attacks.

Now try to get the gun out while he's coming in on you. Stop when body contact occurs.

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Reaching into a pocket, to actually give up the change, is what the person WANTS. Why would he attack you for responding properly to his demands? Kind of stretching the imagination there.

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His intentions were spelled out in the conditions of the scenario. You can what-if anything, after an answer is presented, but that changes the pre-existing scenario.

At the normal distances involved in what was presented, accessing an IWB rig isn't going to happen, either. Instead, you'll end up with your hand, and arm, pinned in your clothing, while the attack proceeds. Or not, but THAT wasn't in the original scenario, either.

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I’m not changing anything about the scenario. The cue for the bad guy to attack is your hand going into your pocket. You asked why would he attack if you’re doing what he wants? He obviously doesn’t want the change, he wants something else & the change request is a ruse. It doesn’t matter what that something else is, you’ve effectively taken one of your hands out of the fight for the time being.

I agree with you 100% that in this scenario an IWB or any other carry method would not allow you to get your gun before the bad guy gets to you. My point in previous posts was that it’s very easy for him to tie up your dominant hand. How do you think most people will fare with one hand, essentially, tied behind their back?

In any case, it’s a positional problem, not a weapon problem. You need to get to a position that allows you to access your weapon if appropriate. Trying to go to guns without an advantageous position will get us nowhere.

Trying to go to guns without an advantageous position will get us nowhere

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Exactly.

This seems to need constant repeating, since some folks just don't seem to get it.

I agree with the guy who spoke about judo.

Anybody who makes a grab for me is taking the short route over my hip/shoulder, and into the ground.

Interesting responses - I pocket carry so I guess my 2 cents is being called for (even if not - I can't resist).

The first thing that struck me with the original post was "Pocket Carry is Bad, just go through these steps and you will agree".

Well, the fact is that I recognize there are other methods of carry that are faster , and/or perhaps more desirable than pocket carry. So what ?

I pocket carry not because I think it is the most desirable way , I do it because it is the best way for me . The way I chose because it works better for me than other methods due to how I dress, etc.

The circumstance of an encounter will, and can, vary in so many ways that any particular method could have drawbacks in my opinion. But I will agree there are from a pure standpoint better methods than pocket carry.

But to put it another way, the last time I needed to withdraw my firearm from my pocket, the guys eyes got real big, and his words were "where did that come from ?"

"Then again, some of what I was raised with , would get me yelled at."

Right. And arrested in the case of my father's blackjacks and saps. He became a State Trooper shortly after WWII. I suppose I should cut them up and toss them. Come to think of it, I should ask him where he got them.

John

Honestly, when I pocket carry, it's with big ole' cargo shorts that are easily accessed. They're deep enough for the gun to stay put (even if it is swinging around like a wrecking ball in the pocket) if I have to move around alot.

I agree though, working out of a holster is much safer.

lightly off topic: No offense, Steve , even though I doubt you'll get the reference, but does anybody else think SM has a similar writing style to Rorshach?

Survival is the bottom line, I'll explain myself to the DA later. We just has a kid in town lured to a creek by "friends" to "hang out". When he got there, one "friend" attacked him. He defended, but was grabbed by "friend" #2 and dragged into the creek where he was held underwater in an attempt to drown him. The victim drew a knife (talk about keeping your head) and made contact anywhere he could upon his attacker. He ended up killing his attacker and escaping. Now murder charges have been filed against him. Disgusting huh? (ref www.ncnewsonline.com - search Tommy Nail)

Anyhow, I can relate to his predicament and all scenarios in the challenge.

#1 defense - Akido! Anyone ever watched Miss Congeniality? S.I.N.G. (Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin). Disabling and disarming classes are available from many schools like the courses offered through F.I.R.E. institute (www.fireinstitute.org)

#2 defense - less than lethal taser/cs mace combo, weak side rear hip IWB

#3 POCKET CARRY - Stong side front pocket Beretta PX40, with Streamlight TLR-2. Being attacked isn't a quickdraw game - the attacker has already suprised you and has won the speed game. He/she is already "on your X". Use #1 or #2 to break contact and get off the X - establish defensible separation.

#4 defense - Gerber throwing daggers and combat Knife on weak side ankle. These work well when you feign a heat attack and drop to your knees (especially if your stong arm is behind your back) or your head is being held underwater.

If I can make it back to my vehicle, then I retrieve my Beretta CX4 carbine, switch mags and establish a distinct defensive advantage.

I think it is understood that a gun might be a little slower to access in a pocket. (This is especially true when you're sitting down.) It is a price you pay for being able to have the gun with you when other methods don't work.

Attention to the size and shape of gun and pockets makes a difference. It is much faster when you have room to acquire a firing grip while your hand is still inside. Also use a pocket holster to keep the gun positioned, and never put anything else in the gun pocket.

I think most people who PC do so because they can't carry in a better position in their situation. I know that's why I PC when I do.



It's better than nothing.

Throwing knives?

Are you serious?

#4 defense - Gerber throwing daggers and combat Knife on weak side ankle. These work well when you feign a heat attack and drop to your knees (especially if your stong arm is behind your back) or your head is being held underwater.

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Throwing knives?
Are you serious?

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As a fellow knife thrower, I have to agree with the "are you serious" comment. It is entirely possible that you are supremely skilled and can hit at very short to intermediate ranges with 100% accuracy. However, the intended use of the weapon involves intentional disarmament. The best case scenario involves you literally throwing away your only advantage against an attacker. Maybe you know something I don't, but I cannot see the advantage here.

My brother asks "does he feign a heart attack often?" Clutching your chest is the most common result of that, which is not exactly the same as going for your ankle and taking your eyes and exposing vulnerabilities to your opponent.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the advantage a revolver has over a semiauto in a contact distance shooting scenario. Try this exercise with an unloaded gun:

Get your gun out, jam it into your partner's ribs and pull the trigger. If it's a semiauto, it may very well be shoved out of battery and fail to fire. If it's a revolver, it will function.

I've done retention training as a law enforcement officer and I can tell you the most dangerous time isn't while your handgun is still in the holster, it's when you have it in one hand while clearing the holster. It makes no difference whether it's pocket carry, IWB, OWB or a level III retention holster, if you don't have enough room to draw it and bring it into action without the BG grabbing it, you're too close to draw it. Use combatives or other tools. Gain distance first. The method of carry has absolutely no bearing on these basic principles. Pocket carry is not automatically bad even though the OP seems to imply this.

You can mind game it to death, but without some FoF training you're just guessing. This sounds like another case of "I know more than you do" -itis.

The first rule of knife throwing in a fight:
1) Don't.

Throwing knives?
Are you serious?

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Hey, it works in the movies!

Armed and Free wrote:
"Survival is the bottom line, I'll explain myself to the DA later. We just has a kid in town lured to a creek by "friends" to "hang out". When he got there, one "friend" attacked him. He defended, but was grabbed by "friend" #2 and dragged into the creek where he was held underwater in an attempt to drown him. The victim drew a knife (talk about keeping your head) and made contact anywhere he could upon his attacker. He ended up killing his attacker and escaping. Now murder charges have been filed against him. Disgusting huh? (ref www.ncnewsonline.com - search Tommy Nail)

Anyhow, I can relate to his predicament and all scenarios in the challenge.

#1 defense - Akido! Anyone ever watched Miss Congeniality? S.I.N.G. (Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin). Disabling and disarming classes are available from many schools like the courses offered through F.I.R.E. institute (www.fireinstitute.org)

#2 defense - less than lethal taser/cs mace combo, weak side rear hip IWB

#3 POCKET CARRY - Stong side front pocket Beretta PX40, with Streamlight TLR-2. Being attacked isn't a quickdraw game - the attacker has already suprised you and has won the speed game. He/she is already "on your X". Use #1 or #2 to break contact and get off the X - establish defensible separation.

#4 defense - Gerber throwing daggers and combat Knife on weak side ankle. These work well when you feign a heat attack and drop to your knees (especially if your stong arm is behind your back) or your head is being held underwater.

If I can make it back to my vehicle, then I retrieve my Beretta CX4 carbine, switch mags and establish a distinct defensive advantage."

Is this a joke?

For situation one why stop with body contact? I've done exercises like you have described with a friend attacking me and me drawing an little airsoft gun from my pocket and I've been able to get a good shot at him(usual with the barrel in contact with the side of this torso) almost every time. Even when he knocked me on the ground I just concentrated on drawing with my right hand and using my left hand to keep him away.

Pocket carry isn't ideal, I can easily admit that, but it can and does work with good practice. My friend doubted that it would work and he got quite the collection of bruises on his chest and stomach from my airsoft pistol(a baby browning copy, about the size of my P3AT that I usually carry in my pocket).

We did the same stuff with ankle carry(of which he was highly skeptical) and I was still able to do a contact shot about 75% of the time without him being able to stop me).

Hey y'all...rainbowbob

I almost never go without a jacket---it's my "lifestyle." I can fold my arms (like I'm pondering something really important) and the right hand is behind my left elbow---at least that's where it seems to be. Actually, it's inside my jacket, hand on grip of my 1911, cross draw. I can look as innocent as a little kid like that!