I believe that any of the pocket carry challenges would exist even if the weapon was holstered ir carried in any other fashon not just in your pocket. If you are under direct frontal attack, your hands are occupied trying to defend yourself. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, one advantage could be if you were to anticipate trouble, it would be possible for you to put your hand n your pocket and grip the weapon in a preparedness move.
Pocket Carry Challenge
- Thread starter crebralfix
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Fred Fuller
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c,
The interview stance is for interviews, not going h2h. It's a very clear phrase of body language that says "Don't come any closer." Anyone who deliberately ignores that message is clearly telegraphing that they are a knowing and deliberate threat, psychotic, or something else that you do not want getting closer to you.
How long does it take to go from interview stance to presentation? How long does it take you to draw once you have a clear threat in sight and have already obtained a grip on your handgun? That's how long the interview stance puts one at a disadvantage. How close can you allow someone to get before being in the interview stance becomes a potential disadvantage and you need to be moving? 10 feet? 15 feet? 20 feet? Approach within your limit marker tells you that you need to be moving, readying pepper spray if you have it (I carry it support side) including a command voice warning to stop and not come closer, and scanning for other threats as well as making sure your escape avenues are still clear. That's assuming the person has not displayed a weapon and still has both hands in full view. If a hand or hands are not visible, the warning verbiage includes "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!"
Once again, anyone who refuses to halt when faced with a person assuming the interview stance and issuing clear commanding verbal instructions not to come any closer is someone you need to be moving away from. Standing there like the Statue of Liberty is never a good thing when faced with a potential violent encounter.
The interview stance is just one possible counter to the criminal interview, granted a forceful and provocative one, but one more way of getting inside a potential criminal's OODA loop. It is authoritarian body language in the strictest sense. IF a given person has the physical presence and self control necessary to make it work, it can be a very effective counter to a criminal approach and 'bump.'
To the average street thug, a potential victim assuming the interview stance says "Cop with a gun." John Q. Victim doesn't usually react that way- but cops often do. Thugs usually don't want to mess with what might be a cop, which means end of interview, which means failing the victim selection process.
That's better than winning a fight- or a gunfight...
lpl
The interview stance is for interviews, not going h2h. It's a very clear phrase of body language that says "Don't come any closer." Anyone who deliberately ignores that message is clearly telegraphing that they are a knowing and deliberate threat, psychotic, or something else that you do not want getting closer to you.
How long does it take to go from interview stance to presentation? How long does it take you to draw once you have a clear threat in sight and have already obtained a grip on your handgun? That's how long the interview stance puts one at a disadvantage. How close can you allow someone to get before being in the interview stance becomes a potential disadvantage and you need to be moving? 10 feet? 15 feet? 20 feet? Approach within your limit marker tells you that you need to be moving, readying pepper spray if you have it (I carry it support side) including a command voice warning to stop and not come closer, and scanning for other threats as well as making sure your escape avenues are still clear. That's assuming the person has not displayed a weapon and still has both hands in full view. If a hand or hands are not visible, the warning verbiage includes "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!"
Once again, anyone who refuses to halt when faced with a person assuming the interview stance and issuing clear commanding verbal instructions not to come any closer is someone you need to be moving away from. Standing there like the Statue of Liberty is never a good thing when faced with a potential violent encounter.
The interview stance is just one possible counter to the criminal interview, granted a forceful and provocative one, but one more way of getting inside a potential criminal's OODA loop. It is authoritarian body language in the strictest sense. IF a given person has the physical presence and self control necessary to make it work, it can be a very effective counter to a criminal approach and 'bump.'
To the average street thug, a potential victim assuming the interview stance says "Cop with a gun." John Q. Victim doesn't usually react that way- but cops often do. Thugs usually don't want to mess with what might be a cop, which means end of interview, which means failing the victim selection process.
That's better than winning a fight- or a gunfight...
lpl
crebralfix
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Why are people bothering to respond to this thread without actually doing the exercises?
As usual, the nay-sayers aren't bothering to do the exercises--or are failing to write that they did do them.
"We", as gun people, tend to overestimate our skills with the gun and overemphasize it in the context of a fight. I see it everyday at the range: "Oh, I'm prepared for CCW because I stand here and shoot a stationary paper target" and "Well, I always carry a gun and I have a very fast draw." The problem is the bad guy gets a say in the outcome of the fight.
The whole point is this: there are distinct disadvantages to pocket carry in the context of a fight. The pocket carry challenge outlines some common events that can occur in a real self-defense situation. Everything works great until you have a non-cooperative opponent. At that time, even an open carry fast draw becomes more difficult as the distance decreases. I know this from experience.
It is useless to attempt to assign probabilities to them; we can play the "what if game" all day long to avoid accomplishing anything. I see this frequently too...as if there's one simple solution that works 100% of the time (a typical stupid American attitude as foreigners keep telling me).
As usual, the nay-sayers aren't bothering to do the exercises--or are failing to write that they did do them.
"We", as gun people, tend to overestimate our skills with the gun and overemphasize it in the context of a fight. I see it everyday at the range: "Oh, I'm prepared for CCW because I stand here and shoot a stationary paper target" and "Well, I always carry a gun and I have a very fast draw." The problem is the bad guy gets a say in the outcome of the fight.
The whole point is this: there are distinct disadvantages to pocket carry in the context of a fight. The pocket carry challenge outlines some common events that can occur in a real self-defense situation. Everything works great until you have a non-cooperative opponent. At that time, even an open carry fast draw becomes more difficult as the distance decreases. I know this from experience.
It is useless to attempt to assign probabilities to them; we can play the "what if game" all day long to avoid accomplishing anything. I see this frequently too...as if there's one simple solution that works 100% of the time (a typical stupid American attitude as foreigners keep telling me).
crebralfix
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Lee,
Interesting thoughts about the bladed stance.
However, I do believe that bad guys understand pre-assault queues, including: grooming, patting the weapon and shifting weight. In this case, we'd be more obvious "stop" signal and drop our hand to the gun. The most important queue is to shift weight forward into an athletic stance AND begin circling with hips square to the target and check the flanks using peripheral vision.
Additionally, what if the goblin ignores your verbal commands (or even doesn't hear them due to adrenaline)?
The main problem with the bladed stance is that the defender has to come out of the bladed stance and square up while moving and drawing (in addition to checking peripheral vision). That's alot of actions to take in a very short time. I experienced this very same problem with a burly guy charging in. It went too fast to do before the "goblin" was in punching range.
That's the problem: too many gun people fail to account for their OODA loop AND the speed at which these things happen. Therefore, why not stay squared up and use the "stop" signal and your voice? It saves an action AND places the body in a strong position (while allowing movement).
Interesting thoughts about the bladed stance.
However, I do believe that bad guys understand pre-assault queues, including: grooming, patting the weapon and shifting weight. In this case, we'd be more obvious "stop" signal and drop our hand to the gun. The most important queue is to shift weight forward into an athletic stance AND begin circling with hips square to the target and check the flanks using peripheral vision.
Additionally, what if the goblin ignores your verbal commands (or even doesn't hear them due to adrenaline)?
The main problem with the bladed stance is that the defender has to come out of the bladed stance and square up while moving and drawing (in addition to checking peripheral vision). That's alot of actions to take in a very short time. I experienced this very same problem with a burly guy charging in. It went too fast to do before the "goblin" was in punching range.
That's the problem: too many gun people fail to account for their OODA loop AND the speed at which these things happen. Therefore, why not stay squared up and use the "stop" signal and your voice? It saves an action AND places the body in a strong position (while allowing movement).
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jmorris
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I'm pretty darn fast out of my Ghost holster but it clashes with my sandals at the beach.
Clip knife at top of pocket is pretty fast too and more lethal than many "pocket" pistols. If the threat is further away then I'll have time to get the pistol out.
Clip knife at top of pocket is pretty fast too and more lethal than many "pocket" pistols. If the threat is further away then I'll have time to get the pistol out.
crebralfix
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Really? Have you tried the exercises? I think you may discover your estimates are a bit off. I know I did.
george29
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Good thought exercise. My pocket holster, a cheapie bought at the Tulsa gun show sold to me by a buxom beauty (which is why I bought it) perfectly retains my 642 and does not pull out of the pocket when I pull the gun. I wear jeans that are just a tad loose and have no problems even with my pot belly puling the gun at FTF distance.
YammyMonkey
Member
Keep in mind that these exercises may not demonstrate how an attack starts, but some position assumed during the attack. Just because the assault doesn’t start with a bear hug doesn’t mean one won’t occur at some point in the fight.
I would say that staying alive > getting laid. If you can’t or don’t explain the why behind the gun then maybe you should work on that.
It is not a case of internet commando-ing. A big part of it is that a lot of people worry about what the best round or gun or holster is but then refuse to wear the gun in the first place if they have to change in the slightest.
Try the drills. Do the work. Use the good & fix the bad. It’s tough to access your gun in the clinch regardless of where it is. Some carry methods make it much easier (AIWB) than others (pocket).
Possible solution: Smart Carry. With a tucked in shirt it’s about as fast as an uncovered OWB holster with some practice & while it has some of the same issues as pocket carry you have a lot more room to work with.
I would say that staying alive > getting laid. If you can’t or don’t explain the why behind the gun then maybe you should work on that.
It is not a case of internet commando-ing. A big part of it is that a lot of people worry about what the best round or gun or holster is but then refuse to wear the gun in the first place if they have to change in the slightest.
Try the drills. Do the work. Use the good & fix the bad. It’s tough to access your gun in the clinch regardless of where it is. Some carry methods make it much easier (AIWB) than others (pocket).
Possible solution: Smart Carry. With a tucked in shirt it’s about as fast as an uncovered OWB holster with some practice & while it has some of the same issues as pocket carry you have a lot more room to work with.
Mad Chemist
Member
For 2 and 4 I'd go for one of my blades as a first option.
But what do I know, I only train clinch and grappling twice a week.
But what do I know, I only train clinch and grappling twice a week.
Mad Chemist
Member
It's easy to dis a mode of carry when not consideringy the circumstances of the person who carries that way.
Anyone ever tried to carry daily in a NPE with warm weather?
Ever tried carrying a std belt holster with gym clothes on?
Appendix carry is sometimes useful but not always.
Sometimes circumstances necessitate sub-optimal gear, so I adapt. I use the best tools at my disposal and rely on training, practice, and mindset to prevail, NOT gear.
Anyone ever tried to carry daily in a NPE with warm weather?
Ever tried carrying a std belt holster with gym clothes on?
Appendix carry is sometimes useful but not always.
Sometimes circumstances necessitate sub-optimal gear, so I adapt. I use the best tools at my disposal and rely on training, practice, and mindset to prevail, NOT gear.
Mad Chemist
Member
Fixed blade AIWB is faster and more effective in the clinch and on the ground than any pistol provided you know how to use it. Yes we have trained it.
Small rounded revolvers seem to have the edge over small pistols for retention. I have not trained this yet due to lack of the proper training tools. However, the shivworks brain-trust has confirmed this in their ecq work.
hardluk1
member
I believe to that most states don't allow the use of deadly force to hold off just a good ass whippen. Has to be a weapon envolved that can cause serious injury. If anyone cares. I am a t-shirt and jeans guy so i am much more limited to carry ,ankle as backup and pocket as main gun. But i to would step away from the trouble with my gun side back or atleast try to.I carry a batton in my left pocket if i can get to it.
Cpt. America
Member
I pocket carry strong side with my Kel-tec p32 and on my week side I keep my Kershaw Vapor 2. Either way I have access to a weapon. I have been carring like this for years. It takes some time getting used to week side use of a knife but its worth it. And if you have a CCW anyway you may want to look into a company called Microtech. They make quality front opening blade knives. But the will cost a pretty penny too.
Mad Chemist
Member
Folding knives can be very difficult to draw and use under pressure. Waved folders are a little better. Fixed blades are the best for this kind of scenario.
catspa
Member
Cpt. America:It takes some time getting used to week side use of a knife but its worth it.
I think carrying a knife on the left side has advantages for a right-handed person like me. As CA said, it leaves your right side free for a handgun. In addition, I sometimes find that I need the knife one handed, because I can't let go of what I'm holding onto with the other, and usually it's my right hand doing the holding. I find that a RH sheath worn on my left side puts the blade edge-forward, which I prefer. But just in case, I have a knife in my right side pocket also.
I use my knife (one or the other) several times per day at least - my sidearm, not as often.
Parker
I think carrying a knife on the left side has advantages for a right-handed person like me. As CA said, it leaves your right side free for a handgun. In addition, I sometimes find that I need the knife one handed, because I can't let go of what I'm holding onto with the other, and usually it's my right hand doing the holding. I find that a RH sheath worn on my left side puts the blade edge-forward, which I prefer. But just in case, I have a knife in my right side pocket also.
I use my knife (one or the other) several times per day at least - my sidearm, not as often.
Parker
crebralfix
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Good discussion folks.
NPE: no. That's against the law. I just OC or don't go there.
Warm weather/PE: yes. My state is extremely humid in the summer. I make the active choice to put up with the sweat and annoyance. A Glock 26 in a kydex holster goes a long way toward alleviating the annoyance associated with heat and humidity.
I work out frequently. I just wear regular shorts and a belt. It works fine for 20-30 minute workouts.
The problem I discovered with carry while working out is that it changes how your back behaves. It resulted in muscular based back pain in the kidney area over the long term.
It's best to put the gun in a bag (where I "conveniently" keep water, gloves, etc) and do the workout with the gun within reach.
True...it's based upon the gun and wardrobe.
Not claiming otherwise...not sure why you would think so. I believe I made it clear that there are reasons to pocket carry, but are potential problems with it when under attack.
Many people in the thread mentioned in the first post seemed overly optimistic about their skill levels and ability to access their weapon in a fight. That's not to say "Don't pocket carry"...I'm saying there are problems with it people need be aware of. Furthermore, the vast majority of people do not understand 1) body mechanics and do stuff like the "interview stance" and 2) train to shoot unmoving paper targets rather than pissed off goblins charging in (and possibly from two or more directions).
NPE: no. That's against the law. I just OC or don't go there.
Warm weather/PE: yes. My state is extremely humid in the summer. I make the active choice to put up with the sweat and annoyance. A Glock 26 in a kydex holster goes a long way toward alleviating the annoyance associated with heat and humidity.
I work out frequently. I just wear regular shorts and a belt. It works fine for 20-30 minute workouts.
The problem I discovered with carry while working out is that it changes how your back behaves. It resulted in muscular based back pain in the kidney area over the long term.
It's best to put the gun in a bag (where I "conveniently" keep water, gloves, etc) and do the workout with the gun within reach.
True...it's based upon the gun and wardrobe.
Not claiming otherwise...not sure why you would think so. I believe I made it clear that there are reasons to pocket carry, but are potential problems with it when under attack.
Many people in the thread mentioned in the first post seemed overly optimistic about their skill levels and ability to access their weapon in a fight. That's not to say "Don't pocket carry"...I'm saying there are problems with it people need be aware of. Furthermore, the vast majority of people do not understand 1) body mechanics and do stuff like the "interview stance" and 2) train to shoot unmoving paper targets rather than pissed off goblins charging in (and possibly from two or more directions).
Mad Chemist
Member
I agree.
I'm still curious about gun fixation in response to scenarios 2 and 4.
I not convinced that using the gun from any carry position is superior to a properly set up blade in those two instances.
Also, I feel that a j-frame or equivalent is FAR superior to a small auto for pocket carry and has distinct advantages in the FUT.
What's your take on that.
JR47
Member
At what point in Scenario one are you legally going to engage him with that gun, no matter where you keep it?
Reaching into a pocket, to actually give up the change, is what the person WANTS. Why would he attack you for responding properly to his demands? Kind of stretching the imagination there.
The follow-on scenarios were tried with IWB as well as pocket carry. In the majority of them, access was seriously compromised by the activities of the assailant.
The problem lies in the fact that, legally, until and unless you can vocalize a lethal threat to yourself, the use of the gun is going to get you arrested, as well as beat up.
The public isn't ready for High Noon scenarios. Any holster is a compromise to presentation. The more legality requires concealment, the slower it will be. We're not all cops, where flashing a gun is considered more embarrassing than illegal.
The idea that carrying a gun is going to enable anyone to by-pass physical contact has been widely dis-proven. If we could just draw and fire at the onset of hostilities, it would be a much more civil society.
Reaching into a pocket, to actually give up the change, is what the person WANTS. Why would he attack you for responding properly to his demands? Kind of stretching the imagination there.
The follow-on scenarios were tried with IWB as well as pocket carry. In the majority of them, access was seriously compromised by the activities of the assailant.
The problem lies in the fact that, legally, until and unless you can vocalize a lethal threat to yourself, the use of the gun is going to get you arrested, as well as beat up.
The public isn't ready for High Noon scenarios. Any holster is a compromise to presentation. The more legality requires concealment, the slower it will be. We're not all cops, where flashing a gun is considered more embarrassing than illegal.
The idea that carrying a gun is going to enable anyone to by-pass physical contact has been widely dis-proven. If we could just draw and fire at the onset of hostilities, it would be a much more civil society.
SgtDinosaur
Member
I can only respond to this hypothetically since we are not allowed to CCW here unless you are a politician or a celebrity. I can see disadvantages and advantages to both forms of carry, not the least of which would depend on the situation. The problem is that the situation will never be what you planned for or expected.
I hypothetically would pocket carry my P32 most of the time, and other times I would hypothetically pocket carry my 340PD, or depending on whatever, maybe holster carry one of the 1911's. If I had a CCW maybe I would do things differently. One thing I really do agree with is that it is a lot more discreet to put my hand in my pocket than to reach for the holstered weapon, which could be construed as brandishing. Although one time I innocently reached into my pocket while talking to a couple of ghetto types and they about jumped out of their skins.
I know how I react under stress, and I am much more likely to do something physical rather than go for a gun initially, especially if it's not already in my hand (this is more of a reflex response when I am surprised). This is not necessarily a bad thing. Actually before I do anything I am likely to use my "command voice". No reponse is guaranteed to be perfect, and plenty of trained people make the wrong decision now and then. If you train for specific scenarios you will probably get confused in a real confrontation.
I suspect situational awareness is the most important element in any confrontation. I actually avoided a potentially bad situation a few months ago by ignoring the animals that were trying to provoke me. Glad I didn't draw on them in the supermarket. It easily could have ended up differently though had they followed through and attacked me. Since I was unarmed (not hypothetically) I imagine I would have been on the losing end, but you never know. Too many variables in real life. Keep a warrior mindset.
I hypothetically would pocket carry my P32 most of the time, and other times I would hypothetically pocket carry my 340PD, or depending on whatever, maybe holster carry one of the 1911's. If I had a CCW maybe I would do things differently. One thing I really do agree with is that it is a lot more discreet to put my hand in my pocket than to reach for the holstered weapon, which could be construed as brandishing. Although one time I innocently reached into my pocket while talking to a couple of ghetto types and they about jumped out of their skins.
I know how I react under stress, and I am much more likely to do something physical rather than go for a gun initially, especially if it's not already in my hand (this is more of a reflex response when I am surprised). This is not necessarily a bad thing. Actually before I do anything I am likely to use my "command voice". No reponse is guaranteed to be perfect, and plenty of trained people make the wrong decision now and then. If you train for specific scenarios you will probably get confused in a real confrontation.
I suspect situational awareness is the most important element in any confrontation. I actually avoided a potentially bad situation a few months ago by ignoring the animals that were trying to provoke me. Glad I didn't draw on them in the supermarket. It easily could have ended up differently though had they followed through and attacked me. Since I was unarmed (not hypothetically) I imagine I would have been on the losing end, but you never know. Too many variables in real life. Keep a warrior mindset.
I have role-played having to access a pocket carry firearm and have found it difficult at times to deploy the firearm and impossible on occasion. Apparently many folks who have likely never done so are convinced that will never be the case. I hope they are correct.
Erik - who frequently pocket carries a BUG.
Erik - who frequently pocket carries a BUG.
YammyMonkey
Member
Because just like you can observe stupid people doing stupid things sometimes crazy people do crazy things. Maybe he really didn't want your change, but wanted you to start thinking of something other than him jumping you to get your wallet, car keys & wife/daughter. We don't know his intentions.
AKElroy
Member
Exactly right. If you are aware of your surroundings, your hand will have a firm grip before any actual trouble starts. I see this as an advantage of pocket carry. This is FAR easier to do inconspicuously than any other mode of carry, and can actually have you at the ready more quickly should a situation turn bad. I too have developed a zero tollerance for panhandlers. I am freaquently approached while pumping gas, and what Lee states above is what I have put into practce. Hand on gun, hip quartered away, left hand out in the universal STOP, and a clear command that "I have nothing for you--you need to move on"--. So far no issues. Under any other form of carry, I would either not have a grip, or I would be forced to risk brandishing in that scenario.
YammyMonkey
Member
For all the folks that advocate the sneaky in-pocket pre-grip:
If someone decided to get physical with you can you get your occupied hand into the fray without the gun? Is this something you practice? Have you stress-tested it? Once the fight starts you’ll be much more likely to hand on to whatever is in your hands than to let go & get down to business. I’ve seen it a number of times with well trained guys who get fixated on maintaining control of a non-functional gun instead of working on the real threat that’s about to monkey stomp them into the gutter.
I’m all for a quick eye jab from the fence with the other hand on another force option, but it seems to me that starting a non-deadly force encounter with one hand on your smoke wagon could lead to very bad things for all involved if the situation escalates to somewhere between hurtful words & just short of shots to the face.
Obviously if your physical or other condition warrants shots to the face in response to a threatened stern man-slapping that’s a different can o worms.
If someone decided to get physical with you can you get your occupied hand into the fray without the gun? Is this something you practice? Have you stress-tested it? Once the fight starts you’ll be much more likely to hand on to whatever is in your hands than to let go & get down to business. I’ve seen it a number of times with well trained guys who get fixated on maintaining control of a non-functional gun instead of working on the real threat that’s about to monkey stomp them into the gutter.
I’m all for a quick eye jab from the fence with the other hand on another force option, but it seems to me that starting a non-deadly force encounter with one hand on your smoke wagon could lead to very bad things for all involved if the situation escalates to somewhere between hurtful words & just short of shots to the face.
Obviously if your physical or other condition warrants shots to the face in response to a threatened stern man-slapping that’s a different can o worms.
ganymede
Member
people seem to be missing an important thing. whether or not the OP's assertions that pocket carry is bad are true or not, those scenarios he gave do sound like a good thing to practice if your going to pocket carry. i don't own a gun thats quite small enough to put into my pocket easily so it's a moot point for me, but if i did pocket carry (and i may some day) those sound like a good thing to practice.
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