Thieves posing as utility company employees

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I don't think the issue here is "how would an armed adult male deal with this more sensibly?".... as a well handled gun would have ended this guys reign at the first attempt (or whenever employed)... the issue is more "how do those who do not have a gun handy deal with the problem of fake workers?"

Some good ideas here.... tell them to your grandma/mom/neighbor/friends... this type of event is all too common these days...
 
Standard practice is that no one is let into the home without prior knowlegde. I still get aggrivated that the local utilitiy workers let them selves through a gate and walk behind my house to 'read the meter' all hours of the day.
 
"Everyone here is too worried about home invaders posing as the police to give much thought to a much more likely scenario you could face."

MY opinion is that the more likely scenarios have been either discussed or the solution to these problems/obstacles are simple enough to figure out..like look for delivery truck and call, check ID, ask for detailed info like name on prescription and drug etc...
But since you mentioned the unlikely scenario or topic of home invaders posing as police...has this subject been discussed?
 
But since you mentioned the unlikely scenario or topic of home invaders posing as police...has this subject been discussed?

It's been discussed so much that we don't discuss it all here anymore. A search will bring up many threads, all of them closed because the membership is incapable of having a rational discussion of that subject.

Unless you are selling drugs out of your home, you have almost a zero percent chance of having to worry about home invaders posing as the police.

If you had read the thread with the rules in it at the top of the page, you wouldn't need to ask this question.
 
"Unless you are selling drugs out of your home, you have almost a zero percent chance of having to worry about home invaders posing as the police."
Is this based on actual statistics or your own? Not trying to be a jerk or anything but a quick google search on home invasions will return a few news reports that show the opposite. Also, in Miami, FL, where I live, it has happened more than twice....
http://www.justnews.com/news/19145312/detail.html


"If you had read the thread with the rules in it at the top of the page, you wouldn't need to ask this question."
. to be honest, I didn't study them. We can discuss utility workers, UPS drivers and other uniformed workers but not police officers or military, right?
 
"Unless you are selling drugs out of your home, you have almost a zero percent chance of having to worry about home invaders posing as the police."

Somehow I don't believe you. Are you sure that this only happens to drug dealers?
 
Three things, first, i love my meter readers, they once startled the crap outta me and countered my response with " if I wanted to scare you like that, I would have said "ROAR"" seccond, honestly, I don't see that many people at the door to make a Procedure for it, identify them as a meter reader/salesman and watch them leave, and i wish andrewski to find me the funniest thing on the internet!
 
I had some guy come around a couple of years ago, claiming he was a water company employee. He offered me no identification or proof of who he was, and I could see his vehicle, an unmarked white minivan, which struck me as odd. I asked him to have the office call me to verify his identity, and he said he would and made a phone call. I received no calls from the water company. Not being able to verify his identity, I asked him to leave without opening the door. He sat on my bench outside my front door for an extended period of time, and then in his vehicle in front of my house. I then called police. He left before the police arrived, but the police found him the area. They told me they verified his identity. When he came back, he told me they were contractors and that the water company did not have my phone number on file (which is utter BS) to give to them. Later, his supervisor called me. He asked if the guy was at least wearing an orange safety vest, and I told him that, no, he wasn't. He seemed deeply disturbed over this.

So here we have what apparently was a legitimate employee who acted incredibly suspicious and failed to provide even the slightest bit of identification or confirmation on who he was. He also failed to leave when asked, thereby committing trespassing. I did my job, and refused to open the door to him and was well-armed. Now if only he'd done his job, we wouldn't have had to get the police involved.
 
Andrewski,

None of your news stories has enough information to to determine if the victims were involved in the drug trade or not.
 
Jeff is right...They only state that they are "victims." You DO understand that even perps call the police when they are robbed, right?
 
None of your news stories has enough information to to determine if the victims were involved in the drug trade or not.

Well, other than this:

Hidalgo County Sheriff Lupe Trevino says investigators are worried, since the criminals are targeting innocent people

But of course, they might be, but as the Sheriff has labeled them as "innocent" I think that should be enough. Do you disagree?

Jeff, why do you think that only people involved in the drug trade might have people invade their home dressed as police?
 
Posing as government employees period is common.

Posing as police is more often used by those intending direct conflict in a home invasion scenario because they can gain immediate compliance by people not wishing to violently oppose the police.


Those using subtlety and theft rather than violent confrontation are more inclined to pose as utility workers, package delivery, sales people, or other people that can claim a legitimate reason to be there. Some wear uniforms while doing so.


Both are a problem.
Someone in a uniform with a clipboard and some tools that go with the uniform is far less suspicious. Sometimes the criminals really do those things for a living or have done such jobs as a profession so know exactly how to pretend to be such people.

Some people really doing those things for a living also tip off friends who are criminals. For example I recall some landscapers that were crooked and part of a crime ring. They would scope out potential targets including the customer and neighbors while doing work for real customers, and someone else would come rob the location later.
The same could be done by virtually any contractors, city employees, or delivery or sales personnel while on legitimate calls.
Details of the target, the location, and various vulnerabilities and valuables can be given to the criminals for later use.
 
So, do you assume everybody is a drug dealer unless it is somehow proved that they aren't?

Your insistence that EVERYBODY target by fake cops in home invasion scenarios makes me think you are either a cop who is worried about your safety, or a fake cop who involves himself in home invasions. It sounds quite comical in fact to insist what you are insisting.

Again, I would recommend opening up with tungsten core, lead 12 gauge slugs if anybody starts hammering on your door.
 
Your insistence that EVERYBODY target by fake cops in home invasion scenarios makes me think you are either a cop who is worried about your safety, or a fake cop who involves himself in home invasions. It sounds quite comical in fact to insist what you are insisting.

No need for things like that.

Again, I would recommend opening up with tungsten core, lead 12 gauge slugs if anybody starts hammering on your door.

I'll pass on your recommendation, thanks. Do what you want though. BTW, do you feel that regular lead foster slugs just aren't up to the task?
 
But of course, they might be, but as the Sheriff has labeled them as "innocent" I think that should be enough. Do you disagree?

Do you really expect the sheriff to publically say "they were involved in the drug trade and that's the chance they take"? Seriously, these crimes are not often accurately reported in the media and it gives people a false impression of what is going on. You have to look beyond the news report into the neighborhood this happened in, maybe know someone involved in the investigation or who knows the victims. There is no way any victim of this kind of crime is going to be portrayed as anything but a victim in official statements by the authorities.

Jeff, why do you think that only people involved in the drug trade might have people invade their home dressed as police?

22 years experience as a police officer in a county that statistically has one of the highest crime rates for rural counties in the state has given me a somewhat different perspective on home invasions then the average member of an internet gun forum.

Home invasion is a very serious crime. It carries very severe penalties. Criminals are lazy. Most of them are not highly organized. it takes much more work to get a group of people together and go do a home invasion then it does to do a burglary. It is also much more dangerous and it carries a high probability of getting caught as these crimes always get a lot of attention from the police.

In my experience and in the experience of every officer from other jurisdictions across the country that I know, home invasions are;

A. drug related and these are the ones where the home invaders like to impersonate the police, because the intended victims are willing to defend themselves and usually won't defend themselves if they think it's a police raid rather then a rip off.

B. Domestic problems - someone is upset because a former lover is with someone else and either they personally or some friend kicks down a door to physically beat up the new lover and/or the new lover's family. Another related reason is a conflict between two parties that is ongoing. It doesn't matter what the reason for the conflict is, it gets to the point where someone is kicking down someone else's door to settle things.

C. The victims keep large amounts of cash or other easily negotiable valuables in their home and it's common knowledge or a criminal becomes aware of it and security measures make less risky means like burglary too hard.

D. The victim is a bank manager, armored car company employee, jeweler or in some other occupation that gives them access to large amounts of cash and/or other easily negotiable valuables.

E. The thrill seeker, this is very uncommon and totally random. Hollywood makes a lot of movies portraying this scenario, but it's very uncommon.

A and B are best defended against by not being involved in the drug trade and not involving yourself with the kinds of people with violent tempers who would kick in your door to settle a score. Go with your gut when choosing your friends. If you have teenage children, know who their friends are and be willing to have your teenagers upset with you when you enforce the household rules about who they hang around with.

D and E are best defended against with very strong physical security measures and good personal security habits. These victims are more likely to encounter a professional criminal and it's harder to defend against.

I don't know why, but for some reason a home invasion, while it is the crime you are probably the most unlikely to be a victim of is the one that everyone on the gun boards always wants to talk about. And when they do talk about it, they don't want to hear about what they can do to actually protect themselves, things like locks, doors, alarm systems, lighting, being careful how you live your life and who you associate with, they want to talk about gunfights and shooting through doors with ammunition from first person shooter games like tungsten core 12 gauge slugs and other things totally removed from reality.

None of us can live in condition yellow 24/7. Those who have had to live that way for an extended period of time will attest to that. You have to go to condition white to rest and recharge. The idea that you are going to be able to jump out of bed, or off the couch and repel the barbarian hordes who are kicking down your door is totally insane. You have to have your home hardened and some type of early warning system so that you can get ready to take whatever action you need to take. These measures are so much more important then any type of firearm you keep, even those loaded with tungsten core 12 gauge slugs. :rolleyes:

That's why home invasions aren't talked about much here in S&T anymore, the threads quickly veer off into members fantasies of jumping out of bed when aroused from a sound sleep and winning gunfights against multiple assailants with the help of their ultimate home defense gun....That is NOT reality. And we do have rules about reality in Strategies and Tactics.
 
Do you really expect the sheriff to publically say "they were involved in the drug trade...."

No, in that case, I would expect something like this: "Four men, one of them armed with a shotgun, forced their way through the front door of a home near Lake Harlingen on Thursday morning and demanded money and drugs from a man and woman in the house, police said." http://www.themonitor.com/articles/sought-29319-drugs-tip.html Maybe I would expect something like "We are continuing to investigate the motive..." I would also expect the article to allude to it by describing the neighborhood in terms of crime, or past arrests of anyone involved, or past arrests at that address.

There is no way any victim of this kind of crime is going to be portrayed as anything but a victim in official statements by the authorities.

Maybe where you live, obviously not in McAllen Texas.

Thanks for sharing your insights on home invasions. So you just don't think it's conceivable that a home invader(s) could be dressed as a cop? It would seem to me that if guys were going to do that, that would be the best way to go about it. Generally, people are taught to trust police, and that slight delay might save you from being shot, while people are thinking "***, they are at the wrong house, and I'm so going to sue..."
 
I haven't seen any evidence that there is any kind of significant majority of folks who suffer home invasion robberies where the perps are disguised as cops are drug dealers. In fact, the preponderance of these stories seem to suggest that the folks who suffer these approaches are indeed normal folks.

It is frustrating to have a person suggest that everybody who suffers this violation is somehow in the wrong. Of course, if I was a cop I would probably peddle the same line - with the no-knock warrants and other extremely invasive techniques being used by law enforcement these days I would be worried while serving these types of warrants.

And, yeah, foster slugs will probably do the job, but in my state at least it is not illegal to use tungsten core rounds. They could be used to disable a vehicle full of loot as well.
 
"they want to talk about gunfights and shooting through doors with ammunition from first person shooter games like tungsten core 12 gauge slugs and other things totally removed from reality"

This is both snarky and unfair. I live in a part of the country where law enforcement is probably quite some distance away. And I have several magazines ready to go - one with buckshot, and one with slugs.

I'm no more removed from reality than a tacticool cop with his MP5 and his AR15 and his BP vest. Maybe I and the cops are a bit overly ready, but there's no harm in being prepared.

The police are increasingly treating (and viewing) the public as an enemy. They are trained by the military to destroy the enemy, and this is showing more and more every day! Sadly enough, this is creating a gulf between the police and the citizenry. Making what, in my opinion, are wild claims about fake police does not help bring you together with the folks you are supposed to serve and protect.

Personally, after my neighbor called to report a prowler and ended up being contacted by an extremely rude, abrasive, and violent pair of cops who ended up tazing him when he demanded they leave his property (after having offered no help, and much attitude) I have decided not to call the cops, and provide for my own safety.

We should be working with each other to help restore the trust. You did not refute any of my offered stories, but cast doubt on them instead. If you have anything to say about these particular cases, that is backed up by facts, please do so. But I don't believe you have dealt honestly with my claims or those offered by others in this thread.

I can see why these discussions have gotten hot. You basically have 2 viewpoints - "If you have nothing to hide it won't happen (which sounds familiar to anybody who has encountered an officer who is eager to make a vehicle search)" and "why can't it happen?"
 
Show me a verifiable instance where it's happened.
Flawed reasoning.

1. The fact that someone may not be able to come up with a link to a verifiable incident doesn't automatically mean it hasn't happened or that it doesn't happen. And it certainly doesn't mean it can't happen.

2. The person who makes the assertion is generally accepted to have the burden of proof. It would be more kosher for you to provide evidence to support your assertion that it never happens (a difficult task indeed) than to require someone else provide contradicting evidence.

Can it happen? Sure it can--unless one can prove that home invaders are infallible...

We know that on rare occasions the police accidentally make a mistake and break into a home they shouldn't. Are we to believe that criminals are actually less error prone than the police and therefore never break into the wrong house by mistake?

Even if we accept the unproven assertion that all home invasions where the invaders pose as police are targeted on drug dealers (or those involved in the drug trade) that clearly doesn't mean that everyone else is safe from such invasions unless we also start with the assumption that home invaders who pose as police never make mistakes.
 
Can it happen? Sure it can--unless one can prove that home invaders are infallible

Anything can happen. But is it worth our time discussing a threat that has such a small probability of happening to the target audience here at THR? No, it's not. We have a mission here and it's not part of our mission to discuss events so improbable that they are more of a gun forum fantasy then reality.

As you can see from a couple of the posts in this thread, the subject is not one that can be discussed rationally in an open forum. We have people posting things about fantastic ammunition that only exists as an add on to some video game.....

There is a reason why most online discussion of serious topics has moved to private, invitation only forums.
 
I woul be cautious of letting anyone in. If someone comes to the door to use the phone I hand out the cell phone. Anyone that knows me knows I use layers of security the is a deterent. I do not answer the door without a hand gun hid down by my thigh. And if you want one example BTK pawned himself off as several different people to get in his favorites seemed to be utility and town officials.



Jim
 
Just saw on the news last night where two guys posing as utility workers (one with some kind of utility worker vest) did a home invasion here in Lexington, Kentucky. The victim was a retired fire chief who was hit/beaten but luckily lived.

Not sure what that adds to the thread but it's not something I'm used to seeing in this city.
 
While I agree that the odds are incredibly low, there are verified cases of criminals taking advantage of new immigrants by posing as police (and sometimes INS/ICE agents). Here in CA, criminals will crash into Hispanic and Asian homes posing as police an "confiscate" all the cash and jewelry they can find. Immigrant families often keep large amounts of cash at home, and they are culturally fearful of the police so are hesitant to report it as a crime.

I still think the odds low for typical American household though.
 
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