Shotgun vs. Carbine for home defense - I get it now!
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There are things I like about both shotguns and carbines for HD. Handguns, too, for that matter. The only clear thing I can state from experience, is that a pump gun is not so easy to work in the prone and some barricade positions, especially with my long arms. (There are, of course, some pump/slide-action rifles.) '
FWIW, I have only fired one defensive shot, in my 48.5 years of living, and 26 years of wearing a badge, 25+ of those being big-city street patrol. I used a .357 sixgun to fire that shot, because it was handiest at the moment, and it happened outdoors. (I didn't hit his toe.) I have "cleared" 2.5 bajillion houses, or so it seems, with handguns and shotguns, and a few with a carbine. This does not make me an expert at anything, of course, just establishing my point of view.
If someone started battering down my front door right now, I would engage him with a shotgun, a Remington 870P that is less than two feet from me, along with a P229 that is closer than that. A decade from now, by which time I should be retired, with no chief's rules to follow, I will probably be using a Mini-14 in place of the 870P. I could use the carbine now, but the admin headaches about rules of deployment and engagement are really not worth it.
Edited to add: To be clear, in the open, at short range, standing on my hind legs, I truly LOVE a good pumpgun! On my belly, in the cold mud, facing multiple adversaries, I would rather have an autoloading carbine.
FWIW, I have only fired one defensive shot, in my 48.5 years of living, and 26 years of wearing a badge, 25+ of those being big-city street patrol. I used a .357 sixgun to fire that shot, because it was handiest at the moment, and it happened outdoors. (I didn't hit his toe.) I have "cleared" 2.5 bajillion houses, or so it seems, with handguns and shotguns, and a few with a carbine. This does not make me an expert at anything, of course, just establishing my point of view.
If someone started battering down my front door right now, I would engage him with a shotgun, a Remington 870P that is less than two feet from me, along with a P229 that is closer than that. A decade from now, by which time I should be retired, with no chief's rules to follow, I will probably be using a Mini-14 in place of the 870P. I could use the carbine now, but the admin headaches about rules of deployment and engagement are really not worth it.
Edited to add: To be clear, in the open, at short range, standing on my hind legs, I truly LOVE a good pumpgun! On my belly, in the cold mud, facing multiple adversaries, I would rather have an autoloading carbine.
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Keauxbi
Member
IMO, I prefer shotguns for HD because they have a lower probability of penetrating walls/floors and injuring innocent bystanders/family. Would hate to break out a .03-06 and fire through the wall and hit someone I wasn't intending to.
Don't forget Cylons.
Don't forget Cylons.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Always a fun argument
It's funny that people want to choose the tool first. Never quite understood that.
The best defensive firearm is the one you are most comfortable with, most proficient with, and can practice with the most.
That is my problem with shotguns. At least around me there are very few shooting ranges that allow for any kind of shooting with defensive shotguns or ammo, for whatever reason.
Dove hunting doesn't really count so that leaves my proficiency with shotguns in serious doubt for moving around inside a house.
So, I choose the carbine for those reasons. But notice that I didn't actually "choose" the carbine, it chose itself based on the things that really matter.
"One stop shots", or any stopping shots, only happen when you can hit what you are shooting at.
As for the OP, he says:
I'm not sure I get why this one is any different with a shotgun. For most defensive loads you are going to have an extremely small pattern of shot, with what, 8 or 9 pieces of shot concentrated in a 1 inch or smaller area? How is a shotgun better for moving targets simply because it's a shotgun?
It's funny that people want to choose the tool first. Never quite understood that.
The best defensive firearm is the one you are most comfortable with, most proficient with, and can practice with the most.
That is my problem with shotguns. At least around me there are very few shooting ranges that allow for any kind of shooting with defensive shotguns or ammo, for whatever reason.
Dove hunting doesn't really count so that leaves my proficiency with shotguns in serious doubt for moving around inside a house.
So, I choose the carbine for those reasons. But notice that I didn't actually "choose" the carbine, it chose itself based on the things that really matter.
"One stop shots", or any stopping shots, only happen when you can hit what you are shooting at.
As for the OP, he says:
I'm not sure I get why this one is any different with a shotgun. For most defensive loads you are going to have an extremely small pattern of shot, with what, 8 or 9 pieces of shot concentrated in a 1 inch or smaller area? How is a shotgun better for moving targets simply because it's a shotgun?
Leaky Waders
Member
Look at it from the other perspective - theoretcial of course. A gang 3-4 of people break into your house to do you bodily harm.
1) They are armed with AR's - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
2) They are armed with shotguns - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
3) They are armed with pistols - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
4) They are armed with a screwdriver, knife, tire iron...etc - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, and AR, pistol, or shotgun?
L.W.
1) They are armed with AR's - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
2) They are armed with shotguns - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
3) They are armed with pistols - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
4) They are armed with a screwdriver, knife, tire iron...etc - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, and AR, pistol, or shotgun?
L.W.
Al LaVodka
member
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The M-1 Carbine is a REALLY great handgun. And though I took the mud out of my home I still won't be diving to the floor and firing any of mine, nor my Mini-14's.
And even in Texas people are not experienced with rifles shooting in and around their house -- they sit at a bench somewhere to practice or fire a coupla shots hunting here and there on non-moving targets. Yup, people choose the weapon then argue about it, oddly. If you don't know a blessed thing about shotguns, yup, stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult. As for the pattern getting to be only almost an inch around, the BORE of a 12 ga. is pushing almost an inch around to begin with!
:banghead:
Al
PS: who WERE those zombies, THE Zombies?
And even in Texas people are not experienced with rifles shooting in and around their house -- they sit at a bench somewhere to practice or fire a coupla shots hunting here and there on non-moving targets. Yup, people choose the weapon then argue about it, oddly. If you don't know a blessed thing about shotguns, yup, stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult. As for the pattern getting to be only almost an inch around, the BORE of a 12 ga. is pushing almost an inch around to begin with!
:banghead:
Al
PS: who WERE those zombies, THE Zombies?
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Leaky Waders
Member
Two people were recently killed less than two miles from my home by an armed group...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/11/byrd-and-melanie-billings_n_230069.html
Isn't Phoenix the kidnapping capital of the US now?
Keeping your head in the sand thinking that a lone meth addict robber will be your only source of confrontation may not be the best policy.
Remember, the loser gang who is sent to someone's home to do them harm or whatever can get the wrong address. You're not talking the top of the gene pool for alot of these scnearios.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/11/byrd-and-melanie-billings_n_230069.html
Isn't Phoenix the kidnapping capital of the US now?
Keeping your head in the sand thinking that a lone meth addict robber will be your only source of confrontation may not be the best policy.
Remember, the loser gang who is sent to someone's home to do them harm or whatever can get the wrong address. You're not talking the top of the gene pool for alot of these scnearios.
MCgunner
Member
I'm not that paranoid. I do like the shotgun because it's a natural pointer and in low light, I don't need no stinkin' sights. I keep a coach gun by the bed, 20 gauge, 3 buck, and a revolver. I'm well familiar with that 20 gauge. I use it to hunt doves. It's a natural pointer for me and I'm quite practiced with it as I love to hunt birds.
If you watch this video, you will come to some VERY obvious conclusions, unless you are a "la la la la la I'm not listening" shotgun fanatic like A LaVodka, or an AR fanatic like a lot of people on this board.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgHDN_ANi4
Why is this man alive? His handguns were readily available, fast to deploy, easy to conceal, and easy to have in his hands instead of the wrong ones.
Is a .38 underpowered? It saved his life. Maybe if he were a mall ninja, the .38 wouldn't have been enough, but since he was a real person, it worked pretty well.
If he had relied on a shotgun, or a carbine, to defend himself, he would be dead. It is that simple. He lacked the space and time it would have required to stash and deploy long guns as effectively as he did his handguns. Watch the video. He is alive only because he had readily-available, fast-deploying, concealed handguns at his fingertips when he was attacked by multiple armed assailants, on multiple occasions.
There is more to self-defense than theoretical "stopping power." The "grossly underpowered" thing is oft-repeated, but it doesn't mean squat in the context of real self-defense in close space, if a weapon of "sufficient power" is slower to deploy, and cannot be concealed in small spaces. It may not mean squat, anyway, because I've never seen it backed up by any facts. I have seen video of a guy being sprayed with 5.56 to little effect, and he went down only when a bullet his his CNS. Seems to me that a .380 ACP would do that much...
If you have plenty of room, by all means, use a shotgun, a rifle, whatever. Just remember: SWAT teams are tactically on offense, not defense. They storm structures. If you are lucky enough to be able to go on the offensive without incurring extra risk to your life, by all means, do so. But counting on that is just plain dumb, and smacks of playing too many video games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgHDN_ANi4
Why is this man alive? His handguns were readily available, fast to deploy, easy to conceal, and easy to have in his hands instead of the wrong ones.
Is a .38 underpowered? It saved his life. Maybe if he were a mall ninja, the .38 wouldn't have been enough, but since he was a real person, it worked pretty well.
If he had relied on a shotgun, or a carbine, to defend himself, he would be dead. It is that simple. He lacked the space and time it would have required to stash and deploy long guns as effectively as he did his handguns. Watch the video. He is alive only because he had readily-available, fast-deploying, concealed handguns at his fingertips when he was attacked by multiple armed assailants, on multiple occasions.
There is more to self-defense than theoretical "stopping power." The "grossly underpowered" thing is oft-repeated, but it doesn't mean squat in the context of real self-defense in close space, if a weapon of "sufficient power" is slower to deploy, and cannot be concealed in small spaces. It may not mean squat, anyway, because I've never seen it backed up by any facts. I have seen video of a guy being sprayed with 5.56 to little effect, and he went down only when a bullet his his CNS. Seems to me that a .380 ACP would do that much...
If you have plenty of room, by all means, use a shotgun, a rifle, whatever. Just remember: SWAT teams are tactically on offense, not defense. They storm structures. If you are lucky enough to be able to go on the offensive without incurring extra risk to your life, by all means, do so. But counting on that is just plain dumb, and smacks of playing too many video games.
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Leaky Waders
Member
Exactly AB, the home defense scenario should be - in my humble opinion - a plan of action. 911, dogs, a security system, and firearms etc.
The watchmaker was successful because he had a plan, trained for that plan and was willing to execute his plan when he had too.
I do not think that it is too far fetched or paranoid behavior to have a plan valid against several home invaders. The situation will already be surreal enough with the perpetrators having an advantage of their willingness to cause bodily harm without second thought. The ill prepared home owner could well find themself at their mercy if some defensive plan isn't enacted.
Making a layered plan and training for it is no different than a firealarm drill or learning to change a spare tire. You may never have to use that training. But you'll be confident and prepared if you ever have too.
BCM has a great Cooper quote in their brochure "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
The watchmaker was successful because he had a plan, trained for that plan and was willing to execute his plan when he had too.
I do not think that it is too far fetched or paranoid behavior to have a plan valid against several home invaders. The situation will already be surreal enough with the perpetrators having an advantage of their willingness to cause bodily harm without second thought. The ill prepared home owner could well find themself at their mercy if some defensive plan isn't enacted.
Making a layered plan and training for it is no different than a firealarm drill or learning to change a spare tire. You may never have to use that training. But you'll be confident and prepared if you ever have too.
BCM has a great Cooper quote in their brochure "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
One more thing. They will expect to be attacking you. You will not know that they are there, until the attack has commenced. The element of surprise is entirely in the attackers' favor -- the watchmaker found a way to take back that advantage. Lugging around a shotgun or carbine would have made that impossible.
Once someone has attacked, whatever weapon you have at your immediate disposal beats the best Benelli stuffed with 00 Buck, under your bed. That would include a baseball bat.
Quote: "Look at it from the other perspective - theoretcial of course. A gang 3-4 of people break into your house to do you bodily harm.
1) They are armed with AR's - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
2) They are armed with shotguns - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
3) They are armed with pistols - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
4) They are armed with a screwdriver, knife, tire iron...etc - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, and AR, pistol, or shotgun?
L.W. "
My answer, to each, is the same. I could do as well with shotgun or carbine, and would want handguns as back-up.
1) They are armed with AR's - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
2) They are armed with shotguns - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
3) They are armed with pistols - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, an AR, pistol, or shotgun.
4) They are armed with a screwdriver, knife, tire iron...etc - which weapon would you prefer to counter with, and AR, pistol, or shotgun?
L.W. "
My answer, to each, is the same. I could do as well with shotgun or carbine, and would want handguns as back-up.
mljdeckard
Member
ArmedBear,
Remember, ALL police agencies are indoctrinated that the tool they will use whenever possible, whether it's the most effective or not, is the handgun. This has less to do with effectiveness than political correctness. If the only tool you are allowed to use is a hammer, you tell yourself that it can hammer any nail, even if it is way undersized for the job. I will NEVER grab a handgun if I have time to get a long gun. Police won't say that they prefer long guns because they are not allowed to use them under many circumstances where a soldier or a civilian should ALWAYS use a long gun. They learn to apply handguns to more situations because they are REQUIRED to.
My primary is an 870, my backup (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine.
Remember, ALL police agencies are indoctrinated that the tool they will use whenever possible, whether it's the most effective or not, is the handgun. This has less to do with effectiveness than political correctness. If the only tool you are allowed to use is a hammer, you tell yourself that it can hammer any nail, even if it is way undersized for the job. I will NEVER grab a handgun if I have time to get a long gun. Police won't say that they prefer long guns because they are not allowed to use them under many circumstances where a soldier or a civilian should ALWAYS use a long gun. They learn to apply handguns to more situations because they are REQUIRED to.
My primary is an 870, my backup (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine.
That's how they usually operate. It would take a pretty brazen criminal to invade somebody's home all by himself because he doesn't really know what to expect once inside (unless he knows the victim).
It depends on how mentally prepared the homeowner is to cause bodily harm to them. And are most criminals mentally prepared to take the harm that somebody who doesn't even consider them human beings, like me, is going to dish out to them for breaking into my home and threatening my family? Hopefully they'll just run like they usually do when somebody fights back, although we always have to prepare for the worst. I'm not going anywhere--it's my home and they're the ones who should be afraid and regret the terrible, quite possibly fatal mistake they've just made.
And no, that's not just macho bluster--I never grew up feeling safe myself, and I've dealt with people like this before I ever laid a hand on a firearm. It's not that I won't feel fear, but it has never stopped me from defending myself before, and I can do a lot more damage to bad guys when armed even with a handgun. Whatever else you do, make sure that you are mentally prepared to do whatever it takes (within the law if at all possible) to defend your life and those of your loved ones. First things first: it's either you or the bad guys--an easy choice. Absorb that on a deep and profound level, and never question it. Now put yourself in their place as part of your planning. If you were them, what would you fear the most? Then give it to them.
That's true, but the risk of the worst case happening can be mitigated by hardening your home against break-ins and invasions. Strongly reinforce your doors and windows, and install local alarms that will alert you in case of an attempted break-in. Assuming they don't give up first, which sometimes happens, you should have the element of surprise as they struggle to get inside.
bigalexe
Member
No to threadjack but I read the following in reference to a carbine by the OP.
I am very confused as to what the heck kind of Carbine is easier to use than a pump or break action shotgun. The only thing simpler to operate than a pump or double barrel SG I have ever used at least IMHO is a bolt-action rifle.
I am very confused as to what the heck kind of Carbine is easier to use than a pump or break action shotgun. The only thing simpler to operate than a pump or double barrel SG I have ever used at least IMHO is a bolt-action rifle.
erichtmobile
Member
first time I ever LOL'd reading the shotgun forum
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The Box o' Truth doesn't, as far as I know, test any civilian .223 defensive rounds, just military FMJ and some sort of frangible designed for training on metal plates, and not with room-like wall spacing (important for realistic tests of fragmenting rounds).
Here's a drywall test of .223 JHP and SP alongside handgun rounds and buckshot, with realistic wall spacing, and the .223 JHP's penetrated fewer walls than 00 buckshot:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428
As far as carbine vs. shotgun, I think the best answer is use whichever one you are most competent with; either one is an excellent defensive weapon. For me, that's the carbine; for others, it may be the shotgun.
Most carbines are "flip off safety, pull trigger". If stored in Condition Three, it would be "pull on charging handle, flip off safety, pull trigger."
The first time I tried to run a pump gun, many years ago, I didn't know there was a funny little button on the underside, in addition to the topside safety, that wouldn't let you cycle the action the first time without pressing the button. I literally couldn't have used that firearm to save my life, if it had it been handed to me in a crisis and I didn't have time to read the manual of arms. Short-stroking a pump can also be a real problem for newbies under stress.
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Squidward
Member
Regardless of your preference
Do those of you using either the shotgun or the carbine view a sling as a help or hindrance?
Do those of you using either the shotgun or the carbine view a sling as a help or hindrance?
Al LaVodka
member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,040
BearArmed;
What kind of foal are you? OK, you can have an apple while someone mucks out your stall.
In full disclosure it has been a 9x18mm with HP's I've put my hand on first three times in as many weeks including tonight (though not once in the prior three years) -- if I was more awake and convinced I might truly have needed a firearm, it woulda been a 12 ga.
Al
PS: What's with this mall-ninja/Rambo-speak totally incorrectly referring to a gun's operation and/or instruction manual as "the manual of arms" I'm starting to see? Who ARE you people?!
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Maverick223
Member
Yep.
rocky branch
Member
I was forced to carry a M2 Carbine the first few months I was in VN.
I had owned a couple M1s in highschool and was fully aware of the dismal wimpy round and its affects.
I had shot lots of rocks boards, trees, old cars, and varmits.
I would never bet my life on a .30 cal carbine again.
If I was goung after ho,e predators a 12 guage with #6 shot would be enough.
I also would have it ready to fire with safety on.
All that racking jive just lets them know where you are.
Life or death, not a movie scene.
There was good mention of one shot effect-you want to kill him or just make him mad?
Friend of mine retired Major currently instructs modern Army snipers.
He says it is hard to overcome the One-shot-one kill thinking foisted off on shooters.
Fact of life is sometimes you miss but still got the opportunity.
You can stand there blinking in surprise or take your opportunity.
I had owned a couple M1s in highschool and was fully aware of the dismal wimpy round and its affects.
I had shot lots of rocks boards, trees, old cars, and varmits.
I would never bet my life on a .30 cal carbine again.
If I was goung after ho,e predators a 12 guage with #6 shot would be enough.
I also would have it ready to fire with safety on.
All that racking jive just lets them know where you are.
Life or death, not a movie scene.
There was good mention of one shot effect-you want to kill him or just make him mad?
Friend of mine retired Major currently instructs modern Army snipers.
He says it is hard to overcome the One-shot-one kill thinking foisted off on shooters.
Fact of life is sometimes you miss but still got the opportunity.
You can stand there blinking in surprise or take your opportunity.
Drako
Member
If your wondering the best home defense is calm reaction to the situation, and all actions have consiquinces so if you are to accidentally shoot your neighbor even with the same round you shot the ARMED Intruder with you could end up with all ranges of different legal charges. from wrongful death suit ,to invulintary manslaughter charges. for along time I used a Double barrel coachmen shotgun with 3 inch magnum 00 buck. Made the girlfriend shoot it once. One barrel at a time! then took her home and showed her what to do. I went to the back bedroom"our bed room" sit in the corner farest from door, placed the but in the corner, under my arm showing her she wouldn't have to take the kick again! turned on the lamp and directed the barrel towards the bedroom door told her to pull both hammers back, scream you have a weapon. as soon as YOU IDENTIFY!!!!!!!! that its not anyone you know! squeeeeezzzee the trigger. and the 2nd one is for G.P. so if some how you miss or they try to get up squeeze it also!! , if you decide to use a handgun make sur you have seldefense rounds Hollow point because even target rounds from 9mm have been known to pass through walls and hit innocent bystanders. in the home. and outside the home. and last but least KNOW YOUR RIGHTS there know one that can say he didn't grab that knife from the kitchen! and best quote by a cop! "Dead Men Tell No Lies!". be safe and Always protect your family.
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